Magnum Dynalab tuner
Comments
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Conversely, and FWIW, I find the FMTunerinfo site to do much more harm than good -- they certainly have a very different set of criteria than do I when it comes to evaluating tuners. They're mostly interested in their radio performance (although, in fairness, they do, as above, pay some attention to audio as well). The site's certainly driven up the prices of certain tuners immensely (the aforementioned TU-717 being one of them, at least at one point in time).
All that being said, it is a very handy one-stop shopping reference for, umm, FM tuner info (i.e., I look at it, too). I'd just take everything you read there with a grain of salt until and unless you've had hands-on and ears-on experience with a bunch of different tuners... preferably in good operating condition (i.e., aligned by someone who knows what s/he's doing, like the aforementioned Mike Williams/"PunkerX").
Oh, and speaking of bunches of tuners -- this guy. Wins.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/176-and-counting.929320/
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Reference only Doc, no 2 gang tuner is going to out perform a 6 gang tuner in pulling in stations. I've went through 10-15 tuners in my time. Started with old yamaha new yamaha 3 or 4 Carvers. The Carver tx11b is nice but very sterile to my ears. More than one Sansui, I currently have a tu719 i found that is really really good at pulling in stations and sounds good to my ears. Kenwoods, Pioneers heck I've lost track of them all. This day in age radio stations are not near as good sounding as years past.at least not in my area.
It's reference material as to the guts of the tuner I've used it for nothing more. Several of their repair service folks have had 3-5 years wait for work. Some have gotten sloppy in their rush to get work done and out. I'd love to have had both the carver tx11b and my Sansui tu719 completely gone through BUT that work is very very expensive. Maybe if I had a Sansui 9900 or 919 or top of the line Yamaha i would have thought more about it, but our radio stations can't survive more than a few years before they are condensed even more. In my area every morning 5 stations all simulcast the Bob and Tom show... The same dang thing across the dial!!! WHY? Because they are all owned by the same dang company. The one great rock radio station that we had suddenly became all Bible all day everyday 24/7 nothing but talk Bible radio. That's the kind of stupid extremes we have here in Central Illinois. -
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That thing is INTENSE! It's also 45lbs.
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The Day Sequerra is arguably the best FM tuner extant -- although the REL Precedent would probably give one a run for its money.
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I'm a little bummed that my local classical FM station is going to HD, which basically rules out listening with a vintage tuner, or in my car, for that matter. I will still be able to stream it, but...
"This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
I'm a little bummed that my local classical FM station is going to HD, which basically rules out listening with a vintage tuner, or in my car, for that matter. I will still be able to stream it, but...
Going "to HD" as in...? I mean, HD stands for "Hybrid Digital" (not High Definition... nope, not even close to "high definition"), the "hybrid" meaning hybrid digital and analog "channels" on the same FM center channel frequency.
Is there "digital only" HD broadcasting now, or was the station only broadcasting analog until now?
I listen to HD stations all the time with a mostly very vintage array of FM tunas.
Works fine.
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This looks like a cool one: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/ele/d/san-francisco-sony-am-fm-stereo-tuner/7206691608.html
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I guess time will tell, but my interpretation is that this particular frequency will be split between analog and HD...if you will. They are changing format, which is rarely a good thing.mhardy6647 wrote: »I'm a little bummed that my local classical FM station is going to HD, which basically rules out listening with a vintage tuner, or in my car, for that matter. I will still be able to stream it, but...
Going "to HD" as in...? I mean, HD stands for "Hybrid Digital" (not High Definition... nope, not even close to "high definition"), the "hybrid" meaning hybrid digital and analog "channels" on the same FM center channel frequency.
Is there "digital only" HD broadcasting now, or was the station only broadcasting analog until now?
I listen to HD stations all the time with a mostly very vintage array of FM tunas.
Works fine."This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
"Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon -
I live in Oakland near the Zoo and reception here is mediocre. I agree nothing sounds like an analog tuner pulling in great tunes, and I love KCSM and I feel their broadcast sound is impressive. I have 2 vintage McIntosh tuners (MR 77 and MR 65) and I have station drift and its frustrating. I followed antenna advice from https://www.fmtunerinfo.com/ but the tuners are mostly unused...
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I have had my share of experience with vintage tuners. I have a Yagi antenna on my chimmney (no rotor). I positioned it according to my address using the website: FMfool.com This website will show you were the broadcast antennas are for radio stations in your area.
Here are a few pics of my Marantz 150 and my McIntosh MR-71
Carl -
I also have a McIntosh MX-110Z. The tuning section is similar to the MR-67. My son has posession of my old Mac system. Here is a picture of his system with my MX-110Z preamp/tuner and the Mac MC-2105 amplifier. The Sony speakers are also mine.
Carl -
Nice speakers Carl!
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An MR71 popped up on TMR the other day: https://tmraudio.com/vintage/tuners/mcintosh-mr71-vintage-tube-fm-tuner-mr-71/
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I live in Oakland near the Zoo and reception here is mediocre. I agree nothing sounds like an analog tuner pulling in great tunes, and I love KCSM and I feel their broadcast sound is impressive. I have 2 vintage McIntosh tuners (MR 77 and MR 65) and I have station drift and its frustrating. I followed antenna advice from https://www.fmtunerinfo.com/ but the tuners are mostly unused...
That sucks. It comes in super strong here in Alameda.
Post edited by Clipdat on -
I guess time will tell, but my interpretation is that this particular frequency will be split between analog and HD...if you will. They are changing format, which is rarely a good thing.mhardy6647 wrote: »I'm a little bummed that my local classical FM station is going to HD, which basically rules out listening with a vintage tuner, or in my car, for that matter. I will still be able to stream it, but...
Going "to HD" as in...? I mean, HD stands for "Hybrid Digital" (not High Definition... nope, not even close to "high definition"), the "hybrid" meaning hybrid digital and analog "channels" on the same FM center channel frequency.
Is there "digital only" HD broadcasting now, or was the station only broadcasting analog until now?
I listen to HD stations all the time with a mostly very vintage array of FM tunas.
Works fine.
That's the way HD works -- the analog signal and two or three HD channels share the analog frequency (center channel) bandwidwith.
The format change is the presumptive deal-breaker there
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Sony made some good tuners, and even a few amazing ones.
(not mine, needless to say)
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Ended up picking up that Sony ST-S333ESXII for $150 off Craigslist over the weekend. Figured it would be a decent way to try out a "nice" tuner without spending too much. As tempting as it was to go for tubes and VU meters, it was more tempting to only spend $150. It worked out great, super cool seller and an effortless transaction!
Overall, this circa 1989 tuner was in pretty good condition for it's age. It cleaned up well with some damp paper towels and alcohol wipes. The wood side panels are just MDF covered with a veneer but they still look pretty cool. The inside was quite dusty thanks to the vented top panel, but nothing a can of compressed air couldn't fix.
The tuning knob feels weighted and spins freely for a bit after you give it a good twist. It is a digital tuner so the knob isn't really essential, but it does increase the ergonomics and usability. I thought it was interesting that a muting relay engages and then disengages every time a tuning adjustment is made. Overall, it feels like a solid unit that is built to last.
Guts photos show a through-hole style circuit board in white that is mounted on an elevated platform. Individual sections are labeled and neatly separated from each other. Overall, a very tidy design.
I think the original power cord was replaced at some point. I forgot to get a good photo of it, but the solder joints where the main power cord connects looked quite sloppy and amateur. Taking a closer look, I could actually see the remnants of the old power cable still attached at the base of the solder posts:
Obviously won't really affect the usability of it, but it was an interesting observation.
Found some relevant information and specifications about this bad boy here:
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sony/st-s333es.shtml
https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/sony_st_s333esxii.html
If anyone has a log in for the hifiengine.com site and can download the pdf of the user manual for me, I would sincerely appreciate it.
I also found this review written in Japanese that was still very insightful when using Google translate to read it: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://nice.kaze.com/av/st-s333esx2.html
The seller included a dipole wire antenna that splits into two wires toward the end like a "T" shape. I've just been using the single wire dipole antenna that I have. Reception seems strong on KCSM 91.1:
The signal strength bar is showing as full. When I disconnected the antenna, the SST and Stereo lights go off and the signal strength drops down to two bars. However the station could still be heard, just a little quieter. When I plugged the antenna back in, it went back to full signal and the SST and Stereo lights came back on and the volume returned.
So, I guess this proves that the signal strength isn't the issue. However, would a different/better antenna still improve the "quality" of the reception itself? Overall, it's very listenable, better than expected even. But I notice on some quiet passages of songs that there is some background hiss/fuzz that I can hear. Not sure if this is a function of the tuner, the antenna, the station, or all of the above. When the music is going as normal I don't hear any static or white noise.
While it's not pristine CD quality, the sound character does have a certain "ease" about it. Something reminiscent of spinning vinyl, a touch of that analog "je ne se quoi"!
Anyway, enjoying it so far for jazz! I've had it on pretty much non stop since I bought it last Saturday! -
Well done
Nice without being outrageous.
No idea how these sound, but probably at least OK. Sony has made numerous good to very good tuners over the years. (yeah, I know I am repeating myself - us old guys do that)
Antenna dogmatics
says, yes, mo' antenna is mo' betta.
I am skeptical (imagine that?!).
s/n does improve (up to a point) with signal strength, so there is that.
I will say this, multipath is one area that may offer an opportunity for audible improvement with a better (more directional) antenna, aimed "down the throat" of the transmitter -- if that is possible where you live. Y'all's got mountains (or, at least big hills) in your neck of the woods. I know this from having lived out that way for a while.
Build yourself a 3 element Yagi tuned to the frequency you want to listen to, look up the line of sight direction from your handiest window to the transmitter (antenna) site, and see if it is any better. And, no, I am not being facetious.
https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/page?p=maps
https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/am-and-fm-single-frequency-maps
source: http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80
On the map above, one may readily observe the challenge opportunity that mountains represent to the "line of sight" VHF signals in the FM band (recall that the commercial FM radio band lies between the frequency ranges assigned to old-school analog NTSC televsion VHS channels 6 and 7).
EDIT:
PS Sent you a PM re: the manuals.Post edited by mhardy6647 on -
It is nice that the Sony has two IF bandwidth settings. Forgot to mention that before.
The specifications on that tuna are excellent. Not that this tells us much about how it sounds, but at least it suggests that it has good bones, so to speak.
Oh, and apropos of nothing: I (still) have the hots for one of the good/better (not best) Yamaha FM digital tuners* -- just because, well, you know... Yamaha.
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* one of my eBAY saved searches
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Here's the coverage map for 91.1 KCSM:
I'm of course right next to Oakland, so I'm within the "red" range of the signal.
Anyway, I've been listening to it daily and really enjoying it. Makes me wonder why I didn't do this sooner. It's just nice to have on in the background in the other room and listen to casually throughout the day. Plus it's a great match for the Falcon LS3/5a speakers that it's playing through.
I tried engaging the "MPX Filter" on the Sony and the results were interesting. It reduced the gain a bit and toned down the high frequency information, taking away some of the strident character of the treble. It did negatively impact the stereo effect and imaging somewhat, but overall it sounded cleaner and more enjoyable. I think I'll leave it on for a few days and use it like this.
And yes, I said imaging. There's actually subtle imaging and soundstaging coming through on some of the jazz pieces they're broadcasting. Definitely didn't expect that. Very cool!
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FWIW: The switchable MPX filters are generally provided for analog tape recording of the FM output. The 19 kHz* MPX pilot signal (carrier) can "beat with" (hetereodyne) the high frequency (typically 60k to 100 kHz) AC "bias" oscillator signal used to insure analog tape recorders' signal linearity as captured onto tape). The result can be audible "birdies" on a FM "air check" recording to analog tape.
All tuners have some sort of steep slope filters to keep the MPX pilot signal (more or less) off of their line-level outputs. This is why the high frequency response of FM tuners only extends to about 15 kHz -- and literally can not (i.e., should not) extend past 18 kHz or so - there would otherwise be a huge, nearly ultrasonic peak at 19 kHz from the MPX carrier for the amplifier (and tweeters) to deal with!
As an aside, mono compatible MPX stereo FM is a marvel of clever and "need-based" engineering -- and all analog -- using clever addition and subtraction of signals (some broadcast, some locally generated) that have to be well controlled in frequency, phase, and level to decode the L and R audio channels from a single broadcast signal! Back from the days when engineers were tough, and wore white short sleeved shirts and pocket protectors. And horn-rimmed glasses. We could put people on the moon in those days.
But I digress...
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@Tony M I saw in one of your downsizing photos that you have this tuner's cousin in your collection.
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You are correct.
One of my LUCKY Goodwill finds. I'll go out and look at it's back for the price. I'll look at the model # too. I think it's a 333 also. ahhh, it's a 730ES.
I looked on the back and didn't see a price. I tilted it up and didn't see a price. So...I question where I got it now. PAWN shop maybe? I do know I bought it for a very low price wherever I got it.
It's impressed me every time I use it as a tuner.
I LOVE the sound of this tuner! It's been hooked up to my MAIN system for quite a while now.
I listened to it just the other day and a few days before that. I also love the display.Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
I just looked to see the levels of our tuners and they are apparently the same but yours has better specs. Yours being a European model. I thought your tuner looked like mine.
Others like these a lot too.
Sony ST-S333ESXII search eBay
Rarely seen in the U.S., the ST-S333ESXII was the European version of the ST-S730ES. Our contributors Tim and Ann report: "We have an ST-S333ESXII and an ST-S730ES and they are virtually identical on the outside, and the user manual that came with the ST-S333ESXII is an international one labeled as the manual for the 'ST-S333ESXII/ST-S730ES.' What's even more interesting is that the performance specs in this manual for this dual-labeled tuner are slightly better than the specs for our American market ST-S730ES. In our system, the ST-S333ESXII is actually a better tuner than our ST-S730ES - the ST-S333ESXII is a really close second to the Macs in sound quality, and just as good as the McIntosh MX 117 and Hitachi FT-5500MKII for DXing. This leaves us wondering if Sony somehow cheapened the ST-S730ES for the U.S. market. We've not done an A/B of the ST-S333ESXII vs. one of our ST-J75s. Sony also made an ST-S333ESG [mostly $75-150 on eBay - Editor] and an ST-S333ESGII in their ES series line of tuners (we have seen several of each on eBay), but they have a different external design than the ST-S333ESXII and the ST-S730ES and poorer performance specs." Tim compares a stock ST-S333ESXII to three top modded tuners on our Shootouts 2.0 page. The ST-S333ESXII usually sells for $125-210 on eBay.
Sony ST-S730ES (1988, $550, photo) search eBay
The ST-S730ES's front panel consists of a Program Switch (off, set, lock, check), CAL TONE, MPX FILTER, TUNE MODE, IF BAND MUTING, FM MODE (stereo, high blend, mono), FM/AM, MEMORY (20 presets), PRESET/TUNING and an analog-style tuning knob. Our contributor Ryan tells us, "The ST-S730ES features a unique front end system that is very immune to any sort of overload. The front end specifications are among the best for any tuner that I have seen. Sensitivity, however, is sacrificed for this ability, and potential DXers should bear that in mind. For urban audiophiles, however, this should prove beneficial. The detector is a very good PLL, and the multiplex is Sony's in-house version of the LA3450 also used in many top modern tuners. The ergonomics on this tuner are among the best of any modern digital, and feature very smooth rotary flywheel tuning and full user control over all major features, including separate buttons for muting and mono. Like most top modern tuners, it uses GDT ceramic filters in the IF tuned with 10.7 MHz transformers and amplitude adjustment pots. Proper matching of the wide filters is critical for best performance, and any audiophile should have his 730ES checked for 6 kHz THD. The filters in my unit are way off and need to be replaced, but this is possible with any tuner, so I don't blame the 730ES for it. As is, I measured 1 kHz THD that did meet the Sony spec. Only at the high end were the filter problems more evident. Overall, this tuner is very user-friendly, and seems to be solidly built and well-designed. My only quibble is the lack of a double balanced mixer, which could have jacked up (IMHO) the RF intermod rejection even higher while retaining acceptable sensitivity."
Our contributor Gary responds, "Given the raves for Sony tuners and Ryan's trumpeting of the wonders of the ST-S730ES, I picked up one of these on eBay. It just arrived today, so consider this a very preliminary view. In terms of ergonomics, this is a great tuner. It's digital, but it has an analog tuning knob and all sort of controls to optimize listening such as wide/narrow filters, multipath filter, stereo blend, etc., and all these settings can be programmed separately for each preset. The sound quality also appears to be quite good right out of the box. The one area where the 730ES falls short compared to the Pioneer F-9 and TX-9500II is its ability to pick out a weak signal adjacent to a strong local. Where the Pioneers allow me to listen to these signals in stereo, the Sony forces me to switch to mono, and even in mono there is some noise coming through from the adjacent channel. It's not terrible, but not up to the standard set by the Pioneers." Our contributor Andrew adds, "I went through four 730ESes before finding a good one. There can be audible differences between 730ES tuners in terms of noise, distortion, selectivity, etc. The good 730ES is a great tuner that sounds as good as a TU-919, CT-7000 or L-07T, and has a smooth sound, close to a Marantz 10B for much less money. Really quiet. Poor ones, however, are common. For me, the best way to select one is by direct comparison in my system, switching between tuners while listening to stations I like. In my experience, price generally does not reflect the tuner's functional quality as much as the cosmetics."
Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
Review continued...
Our contributors Tim and Ann report that the ST-S730ES held its own in a shootout with the Mac MR 74 and MR 78 and Sansui TU-919, among others. Our panelist Jim may have had a bad one, because he tried to enter it in a Shootout and found that it "did not impress me at all." But our contributor PZ says, "I had two good ones. I checked them against each other before I sold one. The only difference I found was in the calibration of the S-meter. One reads a step higher than the other, but the reception was the same, and so was the audio quality. According the the owner's manual, the tuner's 'SST' circuit stands for 'super sound tracing.' It operates when the tuner is in wide mode and receives a strong enough station, and its effect is much lower distortion. The word 'tracing' reminds me of the 'ARTS' (Active Real-time Tracing System) in the Pioneer F-91. These tuners are from the same period and tend to use the same buzz words." See the ST-SA5ES writeup for our contributor Al's comparison of the ST-S730ES, ST-S707ES and ST-SA5ES.
The late Sumo Charlie designer James Bongiorno chimed in: "The main problem with the 730ES tuner is absolutely terrible drift. I did a private review of this tuner for Sony before they released it and told them about it. I suspect that they didn't heed my advice. The problem was that they totally ignored one of the foundational necessities of FM design and that is temperature compensation for all the tuned circuits. This is an absolute no-no and you would think that they would have learned. If they would have fixed this main problem, I think that this could have been an outstanding tuner because the distortion and noise were the lowest that I have ever seen, that is in the short time frame for measurement before it drifted off kilter." And a technical note from our panelist Bob: "One other thing on the 730ES: the front panel MPX switch. So what is this doing? There is already a 'hi-blend' function selected from the FM Mode key. After I received the schematic, it made sense finally. There are two relays AFTER the MPX decoder that switches in a L and R channel 15 kHz filter implemented with an op-amp buffer circuit. With the 'MPX Filter' out, you are running wide open without the sharp cutoff 15 kHz filter, or op-amp buffer in the circuit. On some weak stations I could hear a small reduction in noise with the MPX filter in, but on strong stations it sounded better 'out' to me." Bob compared the ST-S730ES to a Yamaha TX-1000 and says, "They are both pretty good stock. I tend to like the TX-1000 better as it has more capability for difficult station reception, which I need."
Here's our contributor Brian Beezley's review: "The ST-S730ES surprised me with a circuit nearly identical to that in the ST-S444ESX. I found a few minor differences (3SK122 mixer instead of 3SK74, no output op-amps) but the architecture is the same. Unlike my 444, distortion didn't increase at lower signal levels. In wide-IF mode all distortion products were well below -70 dB (0.03% THD). I saw no hint of drift in anything I measured during hours of testing. There are five thermistors in the IF strip and detector. Maybe Sony took Bongiorno's drift complaint seriously, although the thermistors won't affect the tuned circuits he mentioned. Unlike the 444, the 730 does not have audiophile capacitors scattered throughout. The only one I found was a large Nichicon cap in the power supply amusingly marked 'Great Supply.' The AC cord is thick and polarized; I found both inconvenient.
50 dB quieting sensitivity was around 20 dBf in mono and 42 dBf in wide. The two wide IF filters were low-group-delay 220 kHz MX2s and the narrows were 230s. I replaced the narrows with 150s. Separation was 58 dB in wide and 35 dB in narrow. The detector changes the PLL loop-filter time constant in narrow, a nice touch. HD Radio self-noise was about 10 dB weaker than usual in wide, probably due to the 220s and the PLL loop filter. [See our contributor Al's comment on IBOC self-noise in the ST-S555ES writeup. - Editor] The IF circuit has a test point you can short to bypass the IF strip and measure the PLL detector and stereo-decoder circuits by themselves. I found this useful for all kinds of circuit exploration. The SST circuit, which modulates the front-end varactor tuning voltage with audio, can be set to one of four activity levels. I found no benefit until I realigned the front end one more time. Then one SST level reduced distortion slightly. 100 dBf signals at 98.9 and 99.3 yielded an IMD spur down 40 dB at 98.5 MHz. I thought this was pretty good for a tuner without a balanced mixer. I had no IMD problems on the air in my high-RF location.
"The multiplex filter drops the output level 1.5 dB at 1 kHz. This filter should be needed only when tape recording since the pilot is cancelled and the stuff around 38 kHz is already 25 dB down. The high-blend function provided 2.5 dB of noise reduction with 18 dB of stereo separation. This type of high-frequency blending smears instrument locations when their harmonics collapse to the center while the fundamentals pretty much stay put. In addition, low-frequency noise remains quite audible. I changed the blend to a flat one that provides 6 dB of noise reduction with 9.5 dB of separation. This amount of separation still yields a surprisingly good stereo image, with the instruments positioned closer to center but not in any way smeared. The noise reduction is quite noticeable and useful.
When listening on the air, it sounded as if pressing the mono button didn't quite make the output entirely monophonic. I thought I could still hear some out-of-phase stereo noise on weak signals. Sure enough, there was a 2.2 dB difference in channel levels in forced mono when fed a pure L or R stereo signal, and the distortion was higher. In mono a JFET shorts the L and R outputs, but its channel resistance is too high to do the job properly. Adding a diode and resistor to force the CXA1064 stereo decoder into mono fixed the problem. The tuner has a selectable narrow AM IF filter, and its effect is quite audible. The owner's manual mentions that the tuner turns off the microprocessor clock one second after a command is executed. I thought this was a cute trick but I couldn't hear anything leaking into the audio with the clock on or off. I did find annoying the one-second muting period after certain button pushes. Any switching click will be much more brief."
Read our panelist JohnC's comparison between the ST-S730ES and the ST-S700ES in the writeup for the latter. The ST-S730ES usually sells for $75-205 on eBay, with a low of $30 in 6/11 and highs of $335-375 for no discernible reason.Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
Tony in case you didn't mention it
That review he posted is from
https://fmtunerinfo.com/sony.html
They ask on the site to please reference them if you use their material. -
I just went and read their header. I'm truly sorry I missed that.
All credit goes to the "fm tuner info" site.
I did and still do appreciate the wealth of knowledge they provide for us Sony ES tuner owners.Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
