Recommendations for Sub woofer with Polk 2.3s

bem

I need help. I’ve got a pair of Polk 2.3s (not TLs) with Trey’s VR3 mods. Magnets have been glued, and I have new gaskets and hurricane nuts. Trey did an outstanding job on the crossover upgrade and I am extremely happy with the results. However, I still feel the need to try to improve the low end of my system. I’ve got a 16 x 19 ft room with 7.5 ft ceilings. I have hardwood floors and have used wall treatments and area rugs in an attempt to improve low end performance. Wall braces are used on the 2.3s. Speakers are 5 inches away from the walls. I stream Tidal using Roon and a Simaudio 390 Streamer and Preamp with a Parasound JC5. I’ve got upgrade fever and I’m tempted to try a Subwoofer in my system. SVS and their free return policy intrigues me and I ‘m reaching out to you guys for input. I do not use my system for HT.

bem

Here’s a picture of components and speaker layout.

F1nut

My experience shows that spikes are much better than the bass brace.

That said, you should have impressive bass out of those speakers. My modded 2.3TL's can, when it's called for, shake the room, which is bigger than yours.

Anyway, a sub should compliment the music not overpower it. You shouldn't know a sub is playing until muted/turned off. For 2 channel music you want a sealed servo sub such as Rythmik or Velodyne. SVS subs are aimed at HT use of which they do a good job.

bem

F1nut
I may try spikes, however I don’t know if they will do enough for me. Just curious-Is there any difference in low end output between the 2.3 and the 2.3 TL.?
As for subwoofers, I agree that it is critical that they integrate well into your system.I don’t want to be listening to music and be aware of the subwoofer. I agree with your comment “You shouldn’t know a sub is playing until muted/ turned off”. That’s one reason I was asking if anyone has experience with a subwoofer that integrates well with 2.3s. Maybe what I’m looking for does not exist, but it may be worth exploring some possibilities.

Navy_Goat

I have an SVS SB-13Ultra crossed at 40 or 50 Hz (I can't remember what it is set to right now. Either way it is barely noticeable at low to medium volume. When I get a chance to turn it up a bit I do notice it more. Honestly I would be fine for most if not all music, but I have my 2.3s in the living room and I recently put the CC and sub in to have a semi HT connected to the TV. 2.3s with or without a sub, there are no wrong answers to this test. Its great either way. I have not spiked mine but I will once I am sure they are in a permanent spot. I've only been in my current house for a few months and things are still moving around a little. I think my wife wants to replace the couch, so at that point I may see if I can add some 5jrs as to complete the 5.1?

Back to the subs for a min. The SB-13 is a sealed 13.5 inch sub with plenty of power. I think it offers a good compromise between HT and Music. However, my experience with good sub-woofers is limited. I'm sure the brands F1nut is referring to are very good. I just wanted to chime in to say I think my 2.3/SVS combination sounds great!

audioluvr

Is your amp plugged directly into the wall? It should have it's own circuit as well if possible. I had a pair of modded 2.3's and IMHO overwhelmed me with bass. Just seems like something isn't right.

F1nut

bem wrote: »

F1nut
I may try spikes, however I don’t know if they will do enough for me. Just curious-Is there any difference in low end output between the 2.3 and the 2.3 TL.?
As for subwoofers, I agree that it is critical that they integrate well into your system.I don’t want to be listening to music and be aware of the subwoofer. I agree with your comment “You shouldn’t know a sub is playing until muted/ turned off”. That’s one reason I was asking if anyone has experience with a subwoofer that integrates well with 2.3s. Maybe what I’m looking for does not exist, but it may be worth exploring some possibilities.

It exists, Rythmik or Velodyne sealed servo subs.

F1nut

audioluvr wrote: »

Just seems like something isn't right.

I agree. Maybe a driver polarity issue.

bem

audioluvr wrote: »

Is your amp plugged directly into the wall? It should have it's own circuit as well if possible. I had a pair of modded 2.3's and IMHO overwhelmed me with bass. Just seems like something isn't right.

Parasound is plugged into Audio Quest Niagara 1200. It is not on a separate circuit.

WLDock

bem wrote: »

Maybe what I’m looking for does not exist, but it may be worth exploring some possibilities.

Everything, from a $739 HSU ULS-15mk2 to a $16,500 JL Audio Gotham g213v2 won't sound right if not well implemented into the room and balanced with the system. Placement, crossover point for the sub and (and the mains in some cases), phase, level, room compensation and correction, etc.
While the 2.3's have huge radiating surface area and can go pretty low, placement is not always the best for bass. That's where a well placed sub can help reinforce the low end.

Anyway, those 2.3's alone should be thumping you in the chest with midbass as if standing in front of a stack at a concert. Get that right, then think about a sub or two.

Overall Frequency Response: 12Hz - 26kHz
-3dB limits: 30Hz - 20kHz
Rec. Amplication: 50 - 750 watts/channel
Nominal Impedance: 6 ohms
Efficiency: 91 dB

bem

I appreciate all the input from fellow Polk members. I especially agree with WLDock who summed things up nicely. If my memory serves me correctly my 2.3s seemed to have much more low end punch when they were in another room which was carpeted. In the last several months they were placed in a room with a hardwood floor. At that time I did notice a obvious decrease in the low end and attempted to compensate for it by adding some large area rugs along with some acoustical wall treatments. I also played around with speaker placement etc but still found it lacking the low end punch. Right now there is little more that I can think of doing that will help me . That’s why I’m considering try to get some more low end punch through the addition of subwoofer.

Gardenstater

Interior rewiring with Neotech UPOCC 12 gauge for the MW's would probably have as enormous of an effect as it had with my 7B's, or even more so for your 2.3's. You didn't mention specifically what all was done. Have you dynamatted all the baskets? I also got great benefit from having an acoustically absorbing base under my speakers, but that also tends to make them more potentially unstable with regard to sway, so the bass brace would be mandatory or non-negotiable in your case, whereas I haven't needed it for my 7B's. If the room is brighter from more hard surfaces I believe the psychoacoustic effect of that is to make the bass seem less prominent.

engie490

You might want to measure the response you have now to see what your bass response looks like. I suspect that you have room nodes that are causing your issue.

However, based on the photo, you seem lack options for moving the 2.3s around to alleviate the issue. I was going to suggest moving them onto the long wall, but looks like the dormer ceiling will preclude that.

I've had some problem spaces in my time (I was military, so lots of moves) and the worst featured 8-10 db dips (plural!) and a 14 db peak all under 100 hz. I solved the issue by employing an Infinity Intermezzo 1.2S subwoofer. It had a built-in parametric equalizer and measurement system called RABOS. I ended up with 20-100 hz +/- 2 db!.

There are many similar subs on the market now that do that. Given the bass that the 2.3s are capable of though, you might be better off going with a Classe Sigma 2200i. It's an integrated amp that has a DAC and parametric equalizer. That should allow you to correct any major room nodes.

Good luck!

nooshinjohn

Placement of the speakers is the first thing that grabs my attention here. The railing and drop off to the right... The best sub I have found to date for my setup is the REL "S" series. I use an S5 with my 1.2TL's is a room 19x15 with an 8 foot ceiling. I run the high level out for music through their "Crossbow" technology for wireless signal to the sub. This allow placement anywhere in the room.

As has been pointed out already, you want it set so that you don't even know it's there until you turn it off. I use mine to simply reinforce the bottom end and give a solid foundation to the bass. It is amazing just how much that little help solidifies everything above it.

bem

Gardenstater wrote: »

Interior rewiring with Neotech UPOCC 12 gauge for the MW's would probably have as enormous of an effect as it had with my 7B's, or even more so for your 2.3's. You didn't mention specifically what all was done. Have you dynamatted all the baskets? I also got great benefit from having an acoustically absorbing base under my speakers, but that also tends to make them more potentially unstable with regard to sway, so the bass brace would be mandatory or non-negotiable in your case, whereas I haven't needed it for my 7B's. If the room is brighter from more hard surfaces I believe the psychoacoustic effect of that is to make the bass seem less prominent.

Here's what has been done to my 2.3s since I originally purchased them in the late 80's:

Replaced original tweeters with RD0194's
VR3 Fortress V2 crossover/IC mod
Dynamatted all baskets, new speaker gaskets, hurricane nuts, Power Grabbed magnets
Wall bass brace

Repositioning the speakers to the long wall is not feasible at this time without making major room modifications.

Speakers are 6 feet apart and 5 inches from the back wall. Primary listening position is about 10 feet from speakers.

I think I may have exhausted room treatment and speaker placement options so I may just have to try a subwoofer from the one of the suggested companies and see if I can tune it properly. From what I have found out so far it appears that Velodyne may be out of business, Rythmik has an extensive but complicated (to me) line up, REL can get pricey but I'm not certain of what models I might consider, and SVS(according to F1nut ) is geared more to HT. Again I've only started to dig a bit into these companies and I may be way off, but these are my original impressions.

If anyone has any suggestions for specific models that from any of the above companies it would be appreciated. My price range $1000-$2000.

Thanks again.

tratliff

I also recommend REL. The S series would match well with you setup but not sure they will be within budget.

I added two of the REL Carbon Limiteds to my system last year. I have been very happy with the build quality and performance. One of the best upgrades I have done to my system.

nooshinjohn

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa571a-rel-acoustics-s5-subwoofers

This is all you need and it comes with the Longbow, so no need to buy cables or anything else.

Gardenstater

If you're confident that all the mods have been done to your speaker's wiring and your speaker cables and interconnects are totally up to snuff, and that vibration isolation, which can be a huge factor on a wood floor, especially if there is anything other than concrete slab underneath, won't benefit you, then you might consider an inexpensive DSP between the DAC and the preamp or between the preamp and the amp. You might find you don't even need an expensive subwoofer.

engie490

F1nut had some good advice...look for a sealed sub. Ported will be harder to integrate with your 2.3s.

When looking for a subwoofer, you'll need to keep in mind your own listening habits. If you listen at 90 db levels, you can get away with a smaller sub. If you're listening at 110 db, you're going to need a large box that can move a lot of air.

Since we already suspect that the room has problems with bass, I strongly recommend finding a sub with some form of EQ to even out the response. In other words, just getting a sub doesn't change the physics of sound in your room. You're going to need some help in getting a flat response below 100 hz.

SVS has some options in your price range, but I've never heard them:

https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-4000

or this one if your needs aren't quite as great:

https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-2000-pro

F1nut

https://www.velodyneacoustics.com/

F1nut

As for Rythmik, the F12SE.

bem

This is all great info! Thanks for everyone’s input and suggestions. It is greatly appreciated. Now I need to dig in and do some homework before I move forward.

hauxon

I recently added ported 12 inch SVS sub to my 1.2TL. It's crossover point is close to 40Hz and I can only describe what they add as "authority". I have my system in an open space 860 ft2 living room with 14 ft high ceiling. For such a large space a support from a sub is needed even for the huge 1.2TL. I got a ported one because I got a used one for a good price. My original plan was something like an SVS SB13 Ultra or SB16 Ultra (in my wet dreams). But I can find no fault with the ported PB12-NDS I've got but size. I can hear no port noise or boominess just smooth deep authoritative bass, maybe I need to let a jeweler check my ears. So I conclude the main reason for going for a sealed sub would be the smaller size making it score higher on the wife approval factor. My sub is pre-DSP so I'm ordering a Dayton Audio DSP-LF ($60) to measure the low frequency response curve and correct if needed.

Gardenstater

Oh so you're in Iceland! What an interesting place to live. You could also get an otolaryngologist to check your wife's wedding ring . I'm interested in that DSP unit as well. One drawback I see is that the iWoofer PRO app, which is the one that allows automatic room correction, only works with iPhones, or iOS I should say. I wonder how low the built in microphones in these phones and Pads go, and whether a high quality audio grade microphone might be needed.

msg

This is what I was wondering about too, John. Could be a possible bass suckout if that's a stairway down to an open space.

bem, what's the situation in that right corner of your front wall?

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Placement of the speakers is the first thing that grabs my attention here. The railing and drop off to the right...

I had/have a similar situation with 2.3TLs. Thought there was something wrong with them, but it turned out to be a new room setup, placement and bass suckout.

@erniejade I think has some experience with this sort of thing, too.

All great and insightful suggestions above. I just recently had an accidental phase issue in a second room. It was a 'dehr' moment when I figured it out. LSiM703s and sub were canceling out. Couldn't believe the difference when I flipped that switch. Went from maddening void to overwhelming bass that I got tuned nicely. So yeah, definitely good to check the drivers' polarity.

Another thing to consider is cabinet leaks. What kind of leakdown times do you see when you press on the passive? Do the top plates bolt on in these 2.3s? If so, check your nuts.

F1nut

Do the top plates bolt on in these 2.3s?

Yes they do and you can bet they are loose.

bem

msg wrote: »

This is what I was wondering about too, John. Could be a possible bass suckout if that's a stairway down to an open space.

bem, what's the situation in that right corner of your front wall?

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Placement of the speakers is the first thing that grabs my attention here. The railing and drop off to the right...

I had/have a similar situation with 2.3TLs. Thought there was something wrong with them, but it turned out to be a new room setup, placement and bass suckout.

@erniejade I think has some experience with this sort of thing, too.

All great and insightful suggestions above. I just recently had an accidental phase issue in a second room. It was a 'dehr' moment when I figured it out. LSiM703s and sub were canceling out. Couldn't believe the difference when I flipped that switch. Went from maddening void to overwhelming bass that I got tuned nicely. So yeah, definitely good to check the drivers' polarity.

Another thing to consider is cabinet leaks. What kind of leakdown times do you see when you press on the passive? Do the top plates bolt on in these 2.3s? If so, check your nuts.

MSG

The room with the speakers is located above a garage. The stairway to the right of the speakers goes down to the first floor of the house. The stairway consists of 6 steps to a small landing and then turns to the left for 6 more stairs to lower level.

Leakdown time is about 3 seconds.

msg

Leakdown looks good. Yeah man, I'm thinking you might have a room pressurization issue with that hole in the room.

I've not yet spent the time to seriously resolve my main space room issues, but unless you fill that stairwell with popcorn or cotton candy, you'll probably not realize the full potential of your 2.3s, and will need a good sub, or two if you prefer. You're not imagining the sense that you should be experiencing more out of that setup. I liken it to tuning a carb with the fuel mix that's not quite right where you can just tell the engine's got more to give but is holding back.

Whatever speakers I use in my main space, I need the sub on, or things sound thin. I'm using a HSU VTF-15, picked up years ago for combo system use before I developed even a curiosity about anything specifically 2ch. As far as combo/ht subs go, it's been pretty good, as it has some tuning options, like port plugs and adjustable Q, so you can control a bit whether the bass is looser or tighter, but servo-controlled subs are supposed to be where it's at for 2ch.

So, as the guys have mentioned, there are subs designed more specifically for 2ch supplementation and refinement. Not that other subs won't work or maybe even get you to "satisfactory", but if you're serious about 2ch and have the budget, you'll probably want to spend the time researching to decide whether you want to go the the extra expense for the refinements they offer. It does make sense if you consider what you've put into refining your 2.3s. It wouldn't make sense to use a sloppy sub after that. Again, there are some good combo use subs out there, but only you know what will satisfy. Maybe that'll involve trying an SVS sub to see for yourself on their 30 day audition.

Gardenstater

I wonder what would happen if he flipped it end for end and put the speakers against the other wall that doesn't have the stairwell. If that doesn't make a difference I'd be surprised. Then maybe install a door to gain entry to the room, if necessary. I actually have a similar attic converted to large room situation in my house and there is no door and I'm considering doing a SDA system up there, possibly with some entry level SDA 2btl's, so this is interesting to me. In my case speakers would go on the far end, away from stairwell.

bem

msg/ Gardenstarter
Thanks for your follow up comments on my situation. Flipping the speakers to the opposite side of the room sounds like a great experiment to do. Not easy to do short term due to other items in the room. Also even it was somewhat successful , there would have to be very serious WAF negotiations to secure that side of the room as a permanent location for the speakers and components!
I guess at this point I’m going to pursue some trial evaluations of a subwoofer in that room. Whatever sub or subs, I settle on, I’m going to need one with some pretty good tuning capabilities.

Gardenstater

Another thought, which may also be a dead end, is that perhaps you could look into the folding partitions that are on the market and can go from the floor to the ceiling. You could put one of those against the railing but I see that you don't have very much space between the speaker and the railing. They could also be covered with 1" or 2" acoustic foam. For balance another one could be placed to the left of the left speaker, between the speaker and the closet. Too bad you can't flip that room end for end. I know.....WAF!!!