Hello? Sub? You in there?

dllarkin · January 2002

Hello All,

Just wondering if anyone out there has experienced this...

I have RT2000i's hooked up to an Onkyo TX-DS676. I use the sub pre-out to the line in on rt. speaker, and line out of rt. speaker to left speaker. (regular RCA cables used for this). I like to listen at reasonably quiet volumes (~ -40db to -30db on the vol. control) I find that any louder tends to annoy my wife

Here is the weird thing. If I turn my receiver on and don't turn up the volume leaving it at -40db or so (which is perfectly audible BTW, and not a bad background listening volume) The subs in the speakers will never kick on.

When I turn the volume up to a certain level then they'll kick on just fine, and they perform like champs - But I want them to put in their 2 cents worth even at lower volumes. They will if I turn it up and then back down, but I don't want to do that (plus they go off after 10 minutes of low volume input anyway so...)

Have I got these puppies hooked up wrong or what? Is this a normal thing?

Maybe the cable I'm using is of inferior quality and I'm losing the signal? any other suggestions?

Thanks,
David

ntculenuff · January 2002

the amp will turn on when it receives a signal from the lfe out thus turning on when you turn up the volume.
you can turn up the sub volume on your receiver and play with the gain volume on your 20001's. this will send more volume to your lfe out which will kick your amp on when your master volume is at a lower volume. then by adjusting the 2000i's gain your bass wont be too loud..
you can call polk and see if they have a kit to change the sensitivity of the amp in the 2000i's.. i have definitive subs and had the same prob they sent me a kit and it increased the lfe sensitivity and the auto on/off, and was very easy to do..
hope this helps a little..

welcome to the club:D

presidan · January 2002

Yep, buying a new receiver would be a great move. Plus, right now you have your subs hooked in mono.

RuSsMaN · January 2002

Do you have 'stereo' LFE outs?

R

dllarkin · January 2002

I'm curious as to why you think that a new receiver would be an answer to this problem...

Certainly increasing the sensitivity of the amp to incoming signal would help, and I could do that either with a kit as one reply suggested, or by turning up the sub pre-amp output and compensating for overall increase in bass by turning down the gain on the sub amp. (good thinking - i'll try that).

I'm perfectly happy with my receiver though...

Also, I've never seen a L-sub and R-sub output on any peice of equipment, so I'm not sure how one goes about getting 'Stereo' LFE. Besides, LFE is ONE separate channel, so media (DVD movies, etc) are not encoded with a specific L-LFE and R-LFE output. (AFAIK)

presidan · January 2002

Yes, getting that sensibility kit would solve your main problem: subs not kicking in at low listening levels.

For the mono LFE signal read the post : best way to wire 2000i subs ? It's on the third page right now.

RuSsMaN · January 2002

Looked, still don't see what you are talking about, I don't know of any 'stereo lfe'.

Cheers,
Russ

schumach · January 2002

If you listen to your stereo often you can turn the auto on/off off and the sub amp will stay on.

Greg

dllarkin · January 2002

Russ,

I read that thread too, I think what they are talking about is simply using the main pre-outs to deliver low freq. to the powered subs through this. Yes, that is stereo, and provided you have another powered sub (other than the ones in your speakers) to get the LFE channel that's fine...

BUT, if you don't have another dedicated sub for LFE, and you wire your speakers this way, you are going to miss out on the .1 channel of x.1.

By wiring your sub through the L and R front pre-outs you are getting only the low frequencies that are directed to that channel by the decoder. There are some effects that are specifically directed to the subwoofer channel hence, the .1

And just like your center channel, it's just 1 channel, therefore not stereo.

I could be wrong here, but I don't think that I am.

presidan · January 2002

What i want to know.....

If i do plug the 2000's subs with the sub pre out, what will happen to the bass in music cd's ?
Will that bass be played by the mids only ?

dllarkin · January 2002

I guess it would depend on how your receiver handles the sub pre-out in different modes other than dd/dts 5.1. That's a good question... Can't say that I really know the answer to what is coming out of the sub pre-out.

I would think that since the stereo mode you have full frequency range that the crossover in the speaker would take over and feed low frequencies to the sub... I know that when I play music in Stereo mode on my 676 I do get lows from the sub...

Maybe someone else could field that one??

Good question about that, but I still contend that if you wire subs through the front pre-outs that you're losing out on a channel in DD/DTS x.1.

pdebaum · January 2002

dllarkin,

You CAN add the LFE channel (x.1) out of the main pre-outs. Just make sure you've set your Subwoofer to NO (or OFF) in the speaker setup of your receiver. This will also route all bass from any speaker set to SMALL to the front pre-outs. Most modern receivers follow that bass management rule.

I also have a pair of RT2000i's and have found my optimum bass management setup (after trying any flavor of my receiver's sub-out options) :

Set FRONT speakers to LARGE
Set CENTRAL speaker to SMALL (unless it's full range)
Set SURROUNDS to SMALL (unless they're full range)
Set SUBWOOFER to NO or OFF

Use the front pre-outs to connect each sub-woofer line-in in the RT2000i's and make sure the jumpers are removed between the top and bottom binding posts.

This is in my opinion the optimal way to use your subs. Using the sub-out from the receiver can be an exercise in frustration, especially with integrated subs in full range speakers such as the RT2000i's, which are designed with their own optimized crossover network. Mixing in the signal processing from the receiver's sub-out can really turn things ugly fast.

ntculenuff · January 2002

receivers vary in DSP modes, but most DSP are similar with different names
my Onkyo 777 has (for music) stereo, direct, and 5 channel stereo.
stereo: full range mains + LFE
direct : full range mains only
5 channel : mains, center, surrounds, and LFE

so if the 2000's were wired thru the L&R pre outs you would have stereo subs no matter what DSP mode you were in, but you would not have .1 in dd, dts, or dpl.

if the 2000's subs are connected to the LFE you would only get the .1 signal in the DSP modes that have .1
so in the direct mode you would have no subs (if your receiver has this DSP)

if i owned the 2000's i would wire thru the pre outs and buy a stand alone powered sub for the LFE. (just me:))

right now i have 2 subs, a 12" for the LFE and a 10" wired to the L&R pre outs for low mids

ntculenuff · January 2002

always forget about the sub on or off in bass managment :rolleyes: .
pdebaum is right about setting the sub to off or no and the rerouting. so my statement above is for the LFE channel set to on or yes

presidan · January 2002

........ ouch i think that i'm on my 5th attempt to write this post and not get mixed up....(might actually be my 20th by the time u guys read it....)

OK

So if i understand correctly, i CAN get my 2000i's to play that LFE signal even if i plugged them with the L&R pre-outs.( because of that rerouting, i have a denon 3802 so it should work right ?, maybe i should write to Denon about this)

But, would i get a deeper lower BETTER bass if i used the sub pre out instead ?

But again, can the subs in the 2000i's play the bass as good as an independant subwoofer would ? How low can they go ? Can they play that LOW bass that u dont hear and only feel ?

To quote ntculenuff

"if the 2000's subs are connected to the LFE you would only get the .1 signal in the DSP modes that have .1
so in the direct mode you would have no subs (if your receiver has this DSP)"

Regarding that, lets say that i used the sub pre-out. So far so good for all the listening formats in X.1 channels right ?
Now, lets say that i listen to a cd in stereo. Does the sub pre out also carry normal bass or is my receiver gonna have more work to do and use the normal speaker wires to sent the low signals to the speakers ?

It's starting again, i'm gonna stop here.
I know that i ask tons of questions but this is something that bugs me a lot so any kind of help would be appreciated.,.....

dllarkin · January 2002

ntculenuff,

Thanks for the help...

Onkyo does a good job in the manual of telling you what all stettings exist on the receivers, what they don't do a good job of is telling you what the settings actually do in a practical manner...

for instance, no where in my manual does it tell me that if I set sub to 'no' or 'off' that LFE comes through the front pre-outs... makes perfect sense though. So I'm curious as to what the setting speakers to large/small does in a practical sense?

As for the original question in the post... tried the sub level at +10 db and adjusted the total bass to compensate by turning the gain down to about 10:00 on the subs, and it worked like a charm... now subs kick on at a -43db volume level!

Thanks for the fix.:cool:

ntculenuff · January 2002

glad to hear that the suggestion worked

.
i went thru the same thing with my LFE sub and it drove me up a wall.
i actually ended up getting a kit from definitive (both my subs are definitive) to increase the LFE sensitivity input and change the auto on/off from 10 minutes to 35 minutes works great, b4 that i did the volume/gain fix

pdebaum · January 2002

To answer your questions, Presidan :

- Yes, the LFE signal will be mixed to the Front L/R pre-amp outputs (and the Front L/R speaker terminals too for that matter), but only if you have your subwoofer set to NO/OFF in your receiver speaker setup. If your suwoofer is set to YES/ON, then the LFE signal will only go to the sub-out jack. Again, this is basic bass management and all receivers today should have that implemented. Sadly, it's rarely documented and you often have to ask the manufacturer directly for that info.

- Would you get a better bass from the sub-out jack ? If you only intend to use the subs from the RT2000i's, then at best, no difference, but most likely it will be worse depending on what your particular receiver does with its own crossover on its sub-out jack. Your RT2000i subs have a fixed crossover network optimized for the full-range effect of the RT2000i's and expect an unfiltered full range signal. The mix of the 2 crossover networks can produce unpleasant effects. This is a non-issue when using a standalone sub from the sub-out jack, since standalone subs almost always have a crossover dial which you can setup much higher than the receiver's crossover point, to prevent the overlap. For example, if the receiver has a crossover of 80Hz, then you can dial your sub's crossover over that, say 120Hz, or even higher if you can. In that case, the higher the better.

- The RT2000i subs quality : no contest, it's no match with a good quality sub-woofer which can pump down nicely below where the RT2000i would groan in pain (typically 35Hz, I believe from the RT2000i). But remember this is also personal taste; some (like me) like their bass not overwhelming, and tight, which the RT2000i produces wonderfully.

- Listening a stereo CD with sub-out : Yes, when you have an active sub-out jack (YES/ON in the speaker setup), then it's the receiver's job to make sure that all bass from all available channels ends up to its sub-out jack, as well as any LFE channel present. It doesn't matter if the input is stereo, x.1, or else. The bass will also remain on any speaker terminal set to LARGE and the LFE will only go the sub-out jack. But, again, if the subwoofer is set to NO/OFF, then all bass from all SMALL channels + any present LFE channel is routed to FRONT right and left (speakers and pre-amp). That is why, by the way, front speakers can never be set to SMALL when the Subwoofer is set to NO/OFF, since you need your Fronts to be full range (LARGE) to accept bass.

Hope it makes sense.. I know how confusing it sounds, I also had to tear some hair trying to understand that damn bass managment stuff, since it's fairly undocumented in most receivers documentation. On the other hand, check out the online FAQ's on the general Polk site, which have more or less better info on that very same subject (see bass management chapters).

presidan · January 2002

You dont see them but there are actually 5 thumbs up here !!!!!

Pdebaum, that is the most precise and helpfull post i have ever gotten online. I really started to "loose" it when i thought about al that bass management stuff.
I'm happy to learn that plugging the 2000i's subs with the sub pre-out could cause some problems....... I'm just happy that i only tried it with the Marrantz 7200 that i later returned in exchange for a Denon 3802 :rolleyes: ...........

Anyways, thanks again , i really appreciate.
And i'm sorry if the topic of this post took another direction.....
I can understand why peeps would write posts about beeing a polkie for life.

Cya around

pdebaum · January 2002

You're more than welcome Presidan. I felt an itch to give answers because I was in the same predicament as you concerning bass management and only just recently did I see the light after hours and hours of digging the information here and there all over the web. By the way, check out on the Polk site a copy of their review Speaker specialist, issue #2 I think. It has a real good article on bass management.

Also I apologize to the thread starter for being so off topic.

Just one last question to you Presidan. How come you exchanged your Marantz 7200 for a Denon ? Did you have one of those lemons that Marantz unfortunately produced recently ? It's a pity because they're really good when they work. I myself have a Marantz SR-6200 and it seems to me to be just the perfect match for the RT2000i's. I was aware of all the production problems they had with the SR-x200 and I had bet on them having them fixed. Maybe I got lucky because I got a perfect SR-6200 with none of the reported problems.

Well, happy listening all.

presidan · January 2002

Not to worry, i didnt have one of those marrantz that had clicking and popping problems.
The main reason why i brought it back is because it didnt have a 6 discrete channels listening formats as the surround back was a combination of the RS & LS signals.
Second, i know that this might sound weird but i didnt find it powerfull enough. For some reason, i could get more from my old kenwood VR-2080.
I dont know about the 6200 but i couldnt hear anything really before reaching -45, -40 db.
The fact that it was made in korea and not japan kind of bothered me a little.......
I might be wrong but i had the impression that the receiver had problems to power all the 5-6 channels when listening to movies with a volume at around -5 db and higher.
But, the sound quality was very good, maybe a little too dynamic for music but still real good.

I only had the 7200 for a little over a week so i never really gave it a chance... Overall, i didnt feel that the marantz 7200 would do it for me in the years to come.

That denon 3802 i got is just the bomb. That sucker blows me away

dllarkin · January 2002

I kind of like it when a thread takes on a life of its own...

Besides, my original problem was solved (at least temporarily) by NTCULENUFF posts ago.

I too agree with the polkie for life sentiment, especially when there are so many on this board who ask intelligent questions, and so many others who KNOW what they're talking about. Especially with relatively undocumented stuff!! (Thanks for the education PDEBAUM!)

IMHO, whether it's Onkyo, Denon, or Marantz, RT2000i's sound phenomenal. They are some of the best sounding loudspeakers I've ever heard (and I've heard a bunch!)

shrek001 · January 2002

presidan??

congratulations on your purchase on the 3802. I told you you would have no regrets, every time I turn on my 5800 it puts a smile on my face... oh by the way if you don't have a additional sub, just set your sub to off and your mains to large and you will pass that lfe channel just fine......

I have a additional sub with my 2000's and the cs1000, I set the sub on and all three front channels to large, the opening scene from gladiator in dts just blows me away....

presidan · January 2002

Yeah, that 3802 really rocks and it will for years to come. I'm looking for a surround back speaker now

Thanks again Shrek

shrek001 · January 2002

buy another pair of 2000's or 1000's, this way you will have full range speakers all around, use your current rears for the 7.1 channels.. just a thought..... but the defenitive tech, bp2x and 3x are great for surrounds, I have the 3x and love them...

presidan · January 2002

I appreciate the suggestion Shrek but buying the 3802 and polks really put me on a $ diet.........
Besides, i think that the F/X1000 will do a fine job for now.
Having another pair of 2000's or 1000's would be crazy considering the size of my room

shrek001 · January 2002

well take a look at the definitive tech rears, if you ask me they are better than the polks for surrounds and the tweeters aren't that far off from the polks, giving you a nice voice match.... the bp2x and 3x kick ****, and I believe they are in the same price range as the polk rears. as for their towers, definitive is too boomy, but they make kick **** rears..

Hello? Sub? You in there?

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