Turntable Upgrades

kevhed72

So I have been running a Music Hall MMF table with a Ortofon Red Cart. for some time now. About 90 percent of my albums were purchased used but I do use a Record Dr. to clean everything.
There are some deals on the Ortofon Bronze now. Also, looking for some other RCA cables for the turntable for around 150 ish max. Currently running Signal Analog 2s to the phone pre. Thoughts on either the cart. or cables? thanks

displayname

At the price of the Bronze I'd likely go another direction. Nagakoa MP-150 or MP-200, Grado, or AT depending on your preferences.

mhardy6647

I hear really, really good things about the Hana EL and EH MC cartridges; the EH presumably has enough output for a 'normal' MM/MI phonostage.

https://www.musicdirect.com/phono-cartridges/hana-e-mc-phono-cartridge?variant=AHNAMCEH&gclid=CjwKCAjw7e_0BRB7EiwAlH-goOF3IgmhwKUzi7Gpc8Gxa7q9ay3XDi7bBi4-BNUTdMfdq4uFExQ_uxoCXpMQAvD_BwE

Rated for 2 mV output and 47 kohm loading.



I am, FWIW, seriously considering trying the EL one o' these days based on recommendations from folks whose ears I trust very much.

tratliff

I put a Bronze on my Denon table a couple of months ago. Wasn't happy with it out of the box but after about 50 hours its really starting to open up. I also considered the Hana and the SoundSmith Otello but I already have a SoundSmith on my VPI.

I think the Bronze was a good purchase for the price.

jdjohn

If you like the 2M Red, you will likely LOVE the Bronze.

kevhed72

My TT is the older Music Hall MMF with the aluminum Project arm. I may be overthinking compatibility of carts with this setup....Im almost sure I am. The Bronze compared to the Nagakoa MP 150 or 200....per the info out there in the ethernet....supposedly picks up more noise and is more neutral, whereas the Nagakoas are more warm, or musical, some say. Given THAT info. not too much of my vinyl is top notch...so Im leaning towards Nagakoa right now.

kevhed72

Also, would you all consider a used cartridge? At first the idea scares me but if the price is right.....

dromunds

Not unless you can trust the seller as to how many hours etc. if you can trust the seller and low hours, sure.

joecoulson

Nagakoa makes a great cart. I had the 100 for sometime.
Then I upgraded

kevhed72

I went down a cart. rabbit whole during our daily Teams webex session and found out my tonearm is 11g and the Nagaoka MP 150 is 6.5 g. Also carts are expressed in terms of low, medium, or high compliance. A certain compliance cart has to be paired with a certain mass tonearm. What I haven't found yet is what other specs other than mass determine "low" compliance....and so on. I will keep reading this:
https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/tonearm-cartridge-compatability/

mhardy6647

Compliance refers to the wiggliness of the suspension on the cartridge -- a high compliance cartridge needs a low mass arm and vice versa. Cartridge compliance correlates to optimal tracking force for the cartridge. The trick is to match arm and cartridge so that the resonance is not too high and not too low.

In the 1970s, the fashion was for low-mass arms and high compliance, light tracking cartridges. There are very few (if any) of either still being made today, though. Some of the Soundsmith versions of the old b&o "MMC" (MI) cartridges might be pretty high compliance -- dunno.

Nowadays, most arms are medium mass and cartridges medium compliance. 11 g sounds light to me... but maybe so(?) Dunno.

Some of the time-honored faves in cartridges (e.g., the Denon DL-103, in constant production since the early 1960s) were low to very low compliance (with concomitant high VTF requirements 'for best results') and are at their best in fairly heavy arms.

kevhed72

So I continued down the rabbit hole or cartridge research and now wondering if I should upgrade my table. Seems like the Nagaoka carts are a bit light in mass of around 7.3 g (with mounting bolts) and a relatively light arm of 11g....which may not be ideal according to one of the charts. The Ortofon Bronze is supposedly a better match....based on mass.

joecoulson

I will say that I went down that same path of should I get a new table or a better cart. I ended up going with the latter and have loved the results. Not thought about a new table in some time.

soundfreak1

Imho all a TT has to do is support the cart and spin at a constant speed hopefully 33.3 rpms or their abouts. All (almost all) the majic is done in The cart.

displayname

soundfreak1 wrote: »

support the cart

When you're looking at the sensitivity of a high end cart, especially an MC cart, I think this is much easier said than done.

So many elements of the TT produce mechanical vibrations that we cannot detect with our hands or ears, but the cartridge will detect as the stylus grinds it's way through the groove. Every microvibration smears the sound as the signal is amplified exponentially from the cartridge to your speakers.

mhardy6647

soundfreak1 wrote: »

Imho all a TT has to do is support the cart and spin at a constant speed hopefully 33.3 rpms or their abouts. All (almost all) the majic is done in The cart.

Well, not really -- unfortunately, physics gets in the way. The little stylus has to wiggle and the 'generator' in the cartridge has to transduce those wiggles to an AC signal -- BUT -- to do this with fidelity, nothing else can wiggle, or be wiggled. The arm, the platter, the drive, the suspension (or lack of same) all play a part in what wiggles, when it wiggles, and how it wiggles.

The OCD that's become so dominant in rekkid playing isn't entirely ill-founded.

soundfreak1

I don't disagree however the "control" of the cart though critical isn't the "majic" i was speaking of. Take almost any half way decent TT with a good cart and you can get a good sound but with a great cart you can get a great sound. Those using MM cart for instance trying a decent MC cart can be a mind blowing improvement in the sound. Imho the cart is the determinant factor.

kevhed72

I try to keep in mind my vinyl collection is mostly used....there is a Nagaoka deal online but not the best match for my table vs. the Ortofon. My floor is a concrete foundation so that has to be a plus.

jdjohn

kevhed72 wrote: »

So I continued down the rabbit hole or cartridge research and now wondering if I should upgrade my table. Seems like the Nagaoka carts are a bit light in mass of around 7.3 g (with mounting bolts) and a relatively light arm of 11g....which may not be ideal according to one of the charts. The Ortofon Bronze is supposedly a better match....based on mass.

kevhed72 wrote: »

I try to keep in mind my vinyl collection is mostly used....there is a Nagaoka deal online but not the best match for my table vs. the Ortofon. My floor is a concrete foundation so that has to be a plus.

As already mentioned by @mhardy6647 , compliance is the important factor. Sometimes the mass of a cartridge does correlate, but not necessarily. Also, you can always add mass to the headshell if desired.

I will reiterate that if you like your 2M Red, you will probably love the Bronze. I have found the Ortofon sound (at least the 2M line) to be quite analytical/clinical if that is your thing. I do wonder if it might be too much, though, if you're playing mostly used records. The Bronze will unmercifully extract every flaw in the vinyl, so give that some thought. A more forgiving and musical cartridge might be more enjoyable than an analytical one IMO and FWIW.

jdjohn

mhardy6647 wrote: »

The arm, the platter, the drive, the suspension (or lack of same) all play a part in what wiggles, when it wiggles, and how it wiggles.

And then there's the question of which is best: high-mass platters and bases/plinths, or suspended/sprung chassis.

soundfreak1 wrote: »

Imho the cart is the determinant factor.

I would go a step further and say it is the stylus assembly that is the determinant factor. Not only the quality of the gem and shape profile, but also the cantilever design and material used. Although beryllium ruled in days past, boron is probably the best choice nowadays. Beryllium is practically considered haz-mat now.

P.S. It so happens that most MC carts have quality stylus assemblies due to overall cost/quality involved, but there are many high-quality MM stylii out there as well.

soundfreak1

Just an interesting aside.... ever think about how a phone cart takes vibrations and turns them into electrical signals and your speakers take electrical signals and turn them into vibrations.

maxward

Hence the term, transducer.

jdjohn

We can include microphones in that bucket. Also, some folks call phono carts 'pickups', like an electric guitar pickup...another transducer turning vibrations into sound.

mhardy6647

soundfreak1 wrote: »

I don't disagree however the "control" of the cart though critical isn't the "majic" i was speaking of. Take almost any half way decent TT with a good cart and you can get a good sound but with a great cart you can get a great sound. Those using MM cart for instance trying a decent MC cart can be a mind blowing improvement in the sound. Imho the cart is the determinant factor.

You won't, I'd opine, get great sound until you get it all right.

That said, yeah, the MCs do tend to get the emotion and soul of music more right, IME/IMO. Thus did I suggest the Hana EH for the OP -- same price as the Ortofon (and, FWIW, I don't care for that current "entry level" line of Ortofons much at all. The Ortofon SPUs, on the other hand, make it into that 'great' category -- at least the ones I've heard).

THAT said -- my experience with better than average "magnetic" cartridges has, I realized, suggested that so-called MI (moving iron or variable reluctance) cartridges get closer to the 'soul' of MCs than any MMs I've heard.

soundfreak1 wrote: »

Just an interesting aside.... ever think about how a phone cart takes vibrations and turns them into electrical signals and your speakers take electrical signals and turn them into vibrations.

So, yeah, a zero sum game

tratliff

I have both a Bronze and a Soundsmith moving iron MIMC. They both have a place but the Bronze will never be what the MIMC is. My thought was to use the Bronze on the more "Not Perfect" vinyl.

It has worked out well and as I said above the more hours I put on the Bronze the better it gets. But, I do find myself gravitating to the VPI with Soundsmith.

mhardy6647

The Soundsmiths, of course, are modern versions of the (quite good) b&o "Micro Moving Cross" (MI) cartridges.

I still have one of the last MMC-4s (entry level cartridge), I think, ever sold in the US; bought it for my $7 TX-2 from b&o in Boston in 2002.

mhardy6647

jdjohn wrote: »

mhardy6647 wrote: »

The arm, the platter, the drive, the suspension (or lack of same) all play a part in what wiggles, when it wiggles, and how it wiggles.

And then there's the question of which is best: high-mass platters and bases/plinths, or suspended/sprung chassis...

Yeah, but now you're in the realm of religion

kevhed72

Life if funny....I was pretty darn close to going with the Nagakoa MP 150 and I heard that distinct tone on my phone. I looked to discover my speakers actually sold on Flea Bay, so the cart purchase is on hold but I did learn alot about this in the process. Some day I will try out the Nagakoa but trying to stand right next to the cart to listen just wont do. I have a bid on a pair of Totem Skys...which, per my research...should pair very well with my system. Ill write up a mini review of the Skys vs Rainmakers hopefully soon, as there seems to be a void in this specific speaker comparison out there. Thanks for the cart info everyone!