Looking for advice on weak point in system

killerquattro

Hey all! First time post, I would appreciate some help.

I have been slowly building and adding to my setup, which is pretty budget at the moment. Looking for recommendations to improve the current setup. I would only like to spend around $500 to improve it, if possible. I listen to more music than I watch movies, but we also watch the news and other things on it. 50/50 music to tv I would say.



Current hardware:

Receiver - Sony STR-DH130

Turntable - Technics AT-LP120-USB

Speakers - (2) Polk RT12 floor standing speakers, (2) Polk T15 bookshelf speakers, (1) Polk PSW108



Wiring:

Since this is a cheap receiver that doesn't have a sub-out, I have Channel A running to the sub, and then out to the floor standing speakers. Channel B is directly wired to the bookshelf speakers. This cabling method is what was recommended with the PSW108 install booklet.



Room size:

Long rectangular room. Maybe 12' wide x 50' long. Only placement is along the long wall as shown, so speaker placement is definitely not ideal. Also a note, I have small isolation pads on my bookshelf speakers and have no issues playing any records at volume with them next to the turntable.

Right now I am in a rental home, so I would prefer not to start running wire all over the place and worrying about speaker placement too much, but rather focus on fixing my main issue right now.



Issue:

I get better sound out of the cheap T15 bookshelf speakers than I do the floorstanding speakers.. Is this due to the newer and presumably more efficient bookshelf speaker compared to the old RT12 speakers? Or, does the whole system need more power in general?



Resolution?

I am thinking that my cheap receiver
is the weak point, and that either upgrading that, or adding an amp might be the way to go. Can someone please offer up some advice as to what you would upgrade first?

rooftop59

Yes, I think the receiver is the weakest point. I think something like this would sound much better:

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marpm6006/marantz-pm6006-2-ch-x-60-watts-integrated-amplifier-w/d-to-a-converter/1.html

Yamaha and denon make some good options in that price range as well.

F1nut

Why is your left speaker angled out to the left? Why do you have two sets of front speakers and are you running them at the same time?

polrbehr

You can get a better AVR (Marantz, Denon, Pioneer, etc.) that have tons of features
and probably a more robust power supply without breaking the bank. I think you will notice an improvement right away.
Second you could consider going with a preamp/amp setup, which will allow you to upgrade as budget allows, and offers flexibility.
Third, you might try getting a better subwoofer. HSU, Velodyne or SVS are great places to start.

Obviously, all of these ideas cannot be done with $500, but any of them could be had on their own, especially if you look in the used market. Oh and welcome to the Forum!

killerquattro

I know it's far from ideal. I'm really stuggling with the room dimensions, fireplace, hallways, etc.The left speaker is angle out slightly because the entertainment center is not center with the listening position, so I'm trying to shoot some sound down my long room and
to where my wife sits. Ultimately I'm just trying to fill the room. I am not after a home theater setup overall, mostly just good sound, for music listening.

F1nut

You'll never get good sound with the left speaker angled out like that.

rburgess714

Welcome to CP we can help you spend your money.

If your use case is 50/50 music/tv-movies I would consider an AVR upgrade and extend you budget a little so you won’t be compelled to upgrade for some time. Also get an AVR with preouts so you have option to add an external amp down the road should you get the bug. Marantz, Denon and Yamaha are good options. I like the Yamaha Aventage series and accessories for less a great deal on the 1080.

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamrxa1080bl/yamaha-rx-a1080-7.2-ch-x-110-watts-a/v-receiver/1.html

If your goal was just better music I would look for a integrated for 2-channel.

Clipdat

First thing to do is stop trying to run two pairs of speakers simultaneously.

Edit: I don't actually know if you are trying to run them both at the same time, but there's also no reason to have two pairs of speakers in that close of proximity set up like that.

Viking64

I know there are stairs there, but that monitor being offset like that would make me throw bottles and rotten fruit at it in a continuous loop.

mhardy6647

rburgess714 wrote: »

Welcome to CP we can help you spend your money.
...

You know -- I didn't realize we needed a forum motto... but we did -- and now we have a forum motto!

Unfortunately, I have nothing to add to the advice that's already been given.

I guess I'll field one question, though (as long as I'm typin' and stuff) -- is there any way to arrange the audio/video system at right angles (i.e., along the long axis) of the room?

PS That's a beautiful banister and newel post on the stairs.

Clipdat

Viking64 wrote: »

I know there are stairs there, but that monitor being offset like that would make me throw bottles and rotten fruit at it in a continuous loop.

Immensely valuable contributions as usual Jimmy.

F1nut

I'm going to bottom line this topic. No matter what gear you have until you get it set up properly it will never sound good.

Clipdat

Pretty much. You actually can make that setup sound better just by repositioning things and spending $0.

F1nut

Clipdat wrote: »

Pretty much. You actually can make that setup sound better just by repositioning things and spending $0.

Ed Zachary

Viking64

Clipdat wrote: »

Viking64 wrote: »

I know there are stairs there, but that monitor being offset like that would make me throw bottles and rotten fruit at it in a continuous loop.

Immensely valuable contributions as usual Jimmy.

Cry about it some more.

killerquattro

F1nut wrote: »

I'm going to bottom line this topic. No matter what gear you have until you get it set up properly it will never sound good.

So.... your suggestion is to move the bookshelf speakers with a rear placement (or not use them at all), and straighten back the left tower, and you think it'll be loads better? Unfortunately the towers still wont sound good the way they are currently hooked up, so I think ill try some experiments tonight. I wasn't expecting such a difference from the towers after wiring them to the sub.

I think I will remove the bookshelf speakers all together and wire it up that way tonight, to see if they run better from the receiver.

F1nut

Actually, I think you should ditch the towers. Move the console to the left. Move the TV to the right. Place the bookshelf speakers to the left and right of the now centered TV and toe them in towards the listening area.

killerquattro

F1nut wrote: »

Actually, I think you should ditch the towers. Move the console to the left. Move the TV to the right. Place the bookshelf speakers to the left and right of the now centered TV and toe them in towards the listening area.

Interesting.. Do you say that because I said the bookshelf speakers sounded better? What if they didn't, after some testing?

I just finished with some experimenting. I hooked up the towers to the receiver and bypassed the sub for testing purposes. Now I know for sure the tower speakers DO sound much better than the bookshelf speakers. Much more sound presence with a fuller tone. This bookshelf speakers are a little shrill in comparison, offering no mids and would rely too much on the sub for bass if I ditched the towers.

Given this test, I am going to leave the bookshelf speakers out of the system until I move, or have another need for them.

Thanks for your feedback! Crazy how awful the towers sounded routed through the sub.. Huge difference to put them back on the receiver.

F1nut

Running the towers through the sub wasn't the problem. Running two sets of speakers at the same time off of that receiver is asking too much of it. In addition, running two sets of fronts creates all kinds of sound issues.

killerquattro

Actually I can 100% say the towers sounded better hooked to the receiver than they do hooked to the sub. The towers off of the sub sounded horrible. This was after I removed the bookshelf speakers from the equation.

I agree two sets of front was stupid and too much for the receiver. At my old condo, I was able to place the bookshelf speakers elsewhere in the room, and wasn't using the sub yet. When I moved here, I figured since I had them, it doesn't hurt to hook them up and get more sound in one place, but it did hurt the sound. Thank you for your comments, always learning..

F1nut

I'll take your word for it, but running them through the sub should not affect the sound quality of the towers. Maybe something is wrong with the sub?

daddyjt

Polk is not known for offering robust subs, and unfortunately the PSW108 is no exception. It is likely doing little for you, especially in a large and challenging room - therefore, I would ditch the sub for now, and see how just the towers sound, with nothing else hooked up (speaker-wise), after centering the setup as much as possible on that wall.

Give it a serious listen, and work from there.

killerquattro

Ultimately with these changes, I'm pretty happy with how it sounds. Without needing to disconnect the sub, I just turned it all the way down to see if I prefer running just the towers, or with the the sub. I definitely prefer it with the sub, albeit really low volume, just about 10-15%, and staying fairly low on the Hz so its just catching punchy low end, but not really doing much else. I find this subtle amount of bass from the sub is all I want, need, or have approval from the wife on. She is a hearing healthcare provider after all. Haha

@F1nut I do feel like there is something wrong with the output with the sub. I might try and connect one of the bookshelf speakers to it to see if it can power those alright and maybe the towers were too much for the subs output amp. But it is just out of curiosity, after this, they are going into storage.

F1nut

The sub is simply passing a filtered signal through, it's amp is only driving the sub.

killerquattro

Yeah I have no idea, but both me and wife distinctly heard a difference from the AVR and the sub outputs. Unfortunate and makes me want to return in for a better sub, or at least one that's working properly. The sub sounds good and hits hard by itself, so I don't know what's going on with the outputs.

zarrdoss

Agree with F1nut and others 100%, Speaker placement is key. Have you checked to make sure the polarity is correct coming from the receiver to the sub then speakers? If its not right it will make a difference.

F1nut

killerquattro wrote: »

Yeah I have no idea, but both me and wife distinctly heard a difference from the AVR and the sub outputs. Unfortunate and makes me want to return in for a better sub, or at least one that's working properly. The sub sounds good and hits hard by itself, so I don't know what's going on with the outputs.

When connecting the towers through the sub where exactly do you have the crossover and volume knobs on the sub set to?

BTW, that's a stereo receiver, not an AVR.

killerquattro

Crossover at 95 Hz and volume 30%, but that's for both the sub and if i turn it up more than that, the sub is way too loud for the music. Maybe these poor speaker components are somewhat to blame for lack of control. Thanks for clarifying, it's a stereo receiver..

Yep, also checked polarity and it was good.

F1nut

Ok, the -3dB frequency response of your tower speakers is 30Hz, so setting the sub at 95Hz is way too high. Try about 40Hz and adjust the volume up from zero until you just start to notice the bass filling in. You should not know a sub is on until you mute or turn it off.

rooftop59

F1nut wrote: »

Ok, the -3dB frequency response of your tower speakers is 30Hz, so setting the sub at 95Hz is way too high. Try about 40Hz and adjust the volume up from zero until you just start to notice the bass filling in. You should not know a sub is on until you mute or turn it off.

Normally this is the right way to do it, but I don’t think sub has much output to be honest. Get the marantz so linked and just try to towers by themselves...I bet they’ll be better

rooftop59

rooftop59 wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

Ok, the -3dB frequency response of your tower speakers is 30Hz, so setting the sub at 95Hz is way too high. Try about 40Hz and adjust the volume up from zero until you just start to notice the bass filling in. You should not know a sub is on until you mute or turn it off.

Normally this is the right way to do it, but I don’t think sub has much output to be honest. Get the marantz so linked and just try to towers by themselves...I bet they’ll be better

Sorry, I didn’t specify. Output below 40hz. I don’t think it will help those towers IF they are powered properly.