RTi12 vs LSi15

Rudy

I've got the speaker upgrade bug. I own at least five pair of Polk car audio speakers, but other than listening to a pair of Monitor 10s many years ago (which were out of reach on my jr. high school budget), I've never owned any for the home. I like the speakers I have (Grafyx SP-10s...circa 1978-1982), but the Polks would probably be a step up from what I have now.

I noticed that list pricing for the RTi12 and LSi15 are similar, within $30 of each other per speaker. With that in mind, I was wondering if anyone here has compared these two, or if anyone owns either one who could give me their own impressions of each speaker. I have 250wpc to drive a pair of these, but I would not be opposed to biamping in the future. For now, just two channels. I'm probably going to do a separate home theater installation elsewhere in the house.

I listen to, literally, everything (except rap and today's Top 40 stuff), but mainly instrumental music like jazz, Latin, pop instrumentals and vocals, music from the 50's through mid 70's, but also have a fondness for 70's - 80's R&B and funk. Classical, but only in smaller doses. Bass is my big priority--I like to have an extended, clean low end. Soundstage is probably next--speakers that throw a good, accurate image.

I'd rather stay away from a subwoofer for now; the room is large and open, but due to the location of room openings and doorways, positioning a sub (or two) ideally would be difficult. Room size is approx. 13'x19'...one corner opens to the stairway and front foyer, while the opposite corner opens to the dining room.

The ring radiator in the LSi15 looks attractive, but somehow I'd think the RTi 12, with its three 7" drivers, would have a little meatier bottom end to it.

Any thoughts, or anything I should listen for when I go out to audition these? Anyone here specifically like, or dislike, either model? And for pricing, has anyone found good deals on these at any place like Circuit City? (I know they carry the RTi series, but I may have to go to a better dealer for the LSi series.)

Thanks in advance!

brettw22

Rudy.....

Welcome to the forums......Few comments.

You said that you have 250 wpc to drive the speakers with. What brand/model amp are you planning on using?

For all of the different types of music that you listen to, I think that you'll only see about 50% of the music sounding really good on either speaker, with the other having their own strengths.

The 15's will have more detail and better imaging, but the 12's will give you (properly driven) a stronger presence and better bass I believe. I have looked strongly at the 12's, and there is a HUGE difference in them brand new vs. being broken in for a while. The store that I've listened to the 12's at had them out for like 3 hours when i first heard them, but then a few weeks later it was like listening to a totally different speaker. That will be true though of either of the choices that you go.

AsSiMiLaTeD

This is an apples-oranges comparison, as you're comparing two different types of speakers. I'd listen to both and see what you think - I'd listen with the same power and with no subwoofer since you won't have one. Having said that, I'll offer up a couple considerations:

1 - You need to make sure whatever receiver or amp you're using will drive a 4 ohm load. Brett's questions above is your first consideration, unless you plan on upgrading...

2 - The 12s are going to give you a better bass response, hands down, than the 15s. The 15s will a different level of detail than do the 12s. Notice I didn't say more, just different. Again, you're talking apples and oranges here...just completely different sounds, that's why it's ultimately up to you to decide which you like better.

Personally I own the 150s (basically last year's model of the 12s). I also don't have room for a sub, so the RTi series is a better all around fit for me since they offer the overall fuller sound. One of these days when I get a dedicated music setup, I'll probably start looking more seriously at the LSi stuff...

cfrizz

Just an FYI. Tweeter has now started carrying both the RTi & LSi series. So you will be able to listen to both in the same store to make comparisons.

organ

Welcome to the forum.

What brand amplifier do you have? You just mentioned 250w/ch.

I agree with what everyone said so far. The 12's should be able to put out more bass but only with proper amplification.

The LSi IMO is a big step above the RTi line when it comes to mids and highs. I prefer my LSi9 over my 800i when it comes to music and SS amplification.

I guess you'll have to make up your mind whether you want more bass or better mids/highs. You should try to demo both models.

Maurice

Rudy

Thanks for the comments, everyone!

The amp is a Carver M500t. Not sure if it's powerful enough, but I've sometimes considered making a lateral move and getting an Adcom GFA-555 and using the Carver elsewhere.

I did guess that the RTi12 might have a better bass presentation. I considered moving to a model up from the LSi15 but that would be out of my budget, unfortunately. Clear mids and smooth highs in the LSi15 do sound appealing though. If I went that route, I would have to look into a sub in the future, no doubt.

I'll keep reading...keep 'em coming!

Rudy

One other comment: years ago, when I bought my current speakers, I compared mine to Polk's at a store some of you in the Detroit area may remember: Absolute Sound. They've been gone for many years now, but surprisingly, I've used Polk's dealer locater and none of the better audio stores around show up in the listing. The only store that shows having both the RTi and LSi series is The Great Indoors. None of the audio salons like Almas, The Gramophone, Pecar's or any others show up in the search. The Great Indoors reminds me more of an upscale home improvement superstore, not the kind of store conducive to auditioning expensive speakers! I just wonder if some of the local dealers aren't listed in the dealer locater. Seems odd not to find Polk in the good audio dealers around this area.

gregure

Rudy,

Can't attest to the sound quality of the 12's, although I personally own RTi 10's and really like their performance. I've not heard any LSi's however. I would lean toward the 12's myself, if I had the money to bi-amp them properly. Regarding your question about pricing, I've looked around, and no matter where you buy the RTi towers or LSi towers, they are always the same price. Circuit City sells them for the same price as any internet dealer, like J and R, although JR will only ship to the East Coast, and for those of us West Coasters that doens't work. In my experience, also, Polk Audio is hard to find beyond Circuit City and the internet. Even in So. Cal. there are very few privately owned a/v stores that are allowed to carry Polk. Your search may be leaving out a few, but more than likely your options for in-store pick-up are limited. Tweeter is starting to carry them too, finally, but I'm not sure about their pricing. It will probably be the same as everywhere else. Tweeter doesn't have a rep for being any cheaper than CC. I guess it's obvious by now, though, that if you just want to pick up some speakers and hook them up to your existing set up, you should go with the LSi's, that is of course if your receiver drives 4 Ohm speakers. If you're looking for a good deal, you may want to try ebay, unless you insist on having brand new speakers. Good luck in your search.

PolkWannabie

Rudy,

I have a set of 12's.

They run ok on a legitimate 100 wpc amp especially if you don't crank them up real loud, but they get better with 200 wpc and better yet at 400. I'm currently running mine with a 600+ wpc two channel amp.

fireshoes

Rudy, I'm not too up on my Michigan geography, but American TV in Marquette carries both lines, if it's close to you. I work at the Des Moines store. I'm not 100% sure if the LSi15's are on display there or not since it is much smaller than the othe American stores. If nothing else, you can order them there. The RTi12's aren't on display there for sure, but they can be ordered as well.

Rudy

Originally posted by fireshoes
Rudy, I'm not too up on my Michigan geography, but American TV in Marquette carries both lines, if it's close to you.

Well...Marquette is probably a good seven to eight hours away, but I'd have no complaints driving up to the top of Michigan for a vacation. Plenty of room in the CR-V to tote 'em home.

I think I'm just disappointed that the better audio salons don't carry Polk like they used to. I liked when Absolute Sound was around--I was familiar with their equipment and their listening rooms, and knew everyone there...they'd let me sit and listen for awhile uninterrupted if it was a slow day. (I sat in awe of the Martin-Logan CLS IIs when they got them in...that's my own "holy grail" of speakers, but until a nice used pair comes along for sale locally at a good price, they're out of my league!) I first heard Polk's SDA-SRS speakers there as well. I'm never comfortable in a Circuit City for some reason.

LuSh

Hello Rudy: Yes Polk Audio seems to have focused their speakers on low fi outlets for a number of years. Sadly the LSi brand in particular has suffered for it.

Quite honestly I think Polk Audio speakers sound compressed, thin and overly mid-fi. The LSi's were the exception. Much more laid back but demanding decent to higher end electronics to really make them shine. Denon, Yamaha, Sony, Pioneer Elite, even lower end NAD and Rotel won't make the best of the LSi speakers. And that my friend is what might make you even more depressed about the entire situation. Because most of the dealers that carry LSi's or any Polk Product for that matter don't carry any true higher end (NAD to myself is not high end) then you'll never really see the true cost benefits of having LSi speakers in your system.

Polk Audio LSi speakers could really be a gem of higher end systems, but often won't be because of the electronics attached to them.

If you don't want to listen to my rants, please read some of the reviews by the Absolute Sound and the Inner Ear. The gear they used on the LSi's was insane. The key to each review was how the LSi's were the best value part of the equation. The people from TAS and IE used true high-end gear and got a whole lot more from the LSi's then they thought they would using higher priced speakers. The key is to realize that the LSi's are a true Audiophile bargain meaning that they shouldn't be used as a showcase to your system but as a means to cheating on the front end. They offer a musical and airy front end. They won't make a system with a weaker backend sound better, in fact worse, but with a really good backend they are a bargain. Most people that own or have polk audio LSi's have an very inferior backend. Hence the overall mid-fi sound.

As a side note, consider the backend used in systems with Totem Speakers, Revel, or B & W N 800's. They would never use the same setups as most who have heard or own LSi speakers. And that's the key. The LSi's wont hide weaker parts of the system, but they will open up a number of areas when using the same high end parts as the other mentioned brands.

gregure

LuSh,

Reading over your comments, I'm curious to know what brands qualify as the "high end" a/v equipment. I assume we're talking separate receivers and amps, but by whom? Adcom, or something like that? Also, what would you consider a decent "back-end" setup? Would this maybe include LSi 25's for fronts and the 15's for back? Would that give one the overall higher quality sound you are talking about? I'm just curious to hear your opinions on this. Thanks.

PolkWannabie

Yes ... Separate Preamps & Amps ...

There are hundreds if not thousands of manufacturers of high or higher end equipment out there almost none of which you'll find in CC, BB & the like.

If you have the time to read and then research here's an interesting thread on Audiogon dating back awhile for members evolutions in amps ... http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1018196723&read&3&4&

As you'll see, there's no consensus of two or three amps or even manufacturers like there tends to be in receivers.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by LuSh
Quite honestly I think Polk Audio speakers sound compressed, thin and overly mid-fi.

I'm a bit confused...can you please explain what 'mid-fi' sounds like?

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by gregure
LuSh,

Reading over your comments, I'm curious to know what brands qualify as the "high end" a/v equipment. I assume we're talking separate receivers and amps, but by whom? Adcom, or something like that? Also, what would you consider a decent "back-end" setup? Would this maybe include LSi 25's for fronts and the 15's for back? Would that give one the overall higher quality sound you are talking about? I'm just curious to hear your opinions on this. Thanks.

I'm not sure what specific brands LuSh has in mind, but knowing him we're talking high dollar stuff here...probably not Adcom...

Here's the bottom line: First listen and see which you like better. Then figure in cost of owning the speaker and determine where you get the most value for what you can afford. Keep in mind that the LSi's are going to be a bit more expensive to own, maybe not with the cost of the speaker alone, but by the time you buy the upgraded electronics needed to push those speakers, they will be more expensive to own. I'd love to own a pair of LSi's, but I know that by the time I add 'better' electronics and a sub that's just going to be out of my price range. I believe that with the side-firing SW you'll also be a bit more limited in terms of placement, don't know how much though.

I say if you can afford the LSi stuff then go for it, but that doesn't take anything away from the RTi stuff. I can pop a Diana Krall SACD and sit down and close my eyes and feel like she's singing 10 feet in front of me...can't imagine it getting a whole lot better than that...

LuSh

gregure --

Rudy was asking about speakers for a two channel setup. He gave his preferences in musical tastes. Polk Audio LSi speakers can be a really great value speaker in a higher end system. Meaning, that the Polk's would probably be the cheapest part of the overall equation.

A/V is not hi-fi for two channel music. I'd recommend a good Intergrated Amp to start with. www.audiogon.com would be a good place to look for a number of reviews and brand names for a small musical intergrated amp. The brands that I would associate with the LSi speakers for music only, are not found at Tweeters, Best Buy or Circuit City. Quite simply these stores don't sell musical two channel amps.

The amp's I'm talking about to mate better with the LSi stuff would be, Bryston, Classe, SimAudio, Creek, Rega, Arcam, Musical Fidelity. If you wanted to kick it up another notch, you could start getting into mega priced stuff like Krell, Jeff Roland, Plinuis. But that isn't a very good starting point. These products offer a very good musical sense. They mate better with the LSi stuff then your typical stuff from Japan, because they are made to sound good, they are not feature crazy. Most intergrated's have 3 buttons on them.

When I was referring to the "back-end" I meant the stuff that feeds the "front-end". The Front end being your speakers, the backend being your amp, and source player. Your front end can only be as good as your backend. If garbage is being force fed up the stream, then your speakers cannot add anything at the last second. This is why I believe the more and more people listen to speakers at "Tweeters" the more and more they will begin to not understand what LSi's are and can be. The "A/V receiver" was not meant to be put together with these speakers. They are certainly not the bargain they truely are if you stretch to get these speakers and leave them hanging with a weaker backend. It is only when you mate these speakers with the mentioned brands on the backend do you truely reap the rewards of the LSi's and they become a bargain.

The LSi's are a true audio bargain, in the fact they can convey a transparent life like sound that is wide and deep in the soundstage. They can do this often with have the money spent then on many other brands on the market. I've had one person tell me that he liked the LSi9's more then the Totem Hawks he use to run. The Hawks are almost twice the price. Neither speaker would sound good with "adcom, denon, yamaha, sony" for two channel at least. The point is that the LSi speakers need good food. Most people stretch to get these speakers then run out of funds, or an intimate knowledge of how to get the most out of them. If BB, CC or Tweeters don't carry the amps or backend most people stop looking. And settle.

Polkmanic:

Mid-fi -- Bright, harsh, smallish soundstage, shallow depth, grainy, compressed, thin.

Rudy

Good points all around.

I get the feeling I'll like the highs and mids of the LSi15 better than the RTi12, as it seems they may have the more refined sound I'm looking for. I'll definitely give the bass some evaluation though, since I'm going from speakers using a 10" vented woofer right now. The basic room isn't huge, but it opens out into other areas which makes it a bit of a challenge to fill with good bass. I think with the LSi15 I may have to end up using a separate subwoofer at some point.

Thanks!

Rudy

I made a trip up to Novi today, since The Great Indoors is listed on the Polk website as carrying both the RTi and LSi line of speakers.

Well, in typical superstore fashion, the Polk selection was poor. The only other speakers I heard that I liked were a pair of Boston Acoustics (I believe it was one of the VR line). In Polks, all they had were the RTi8 and RTi10. The auditioning environment sucked, to put it nicely. You chose a "system" from a touchscreen (which included a five speaker surround system, and a receiver), and had no choice of source material. All that was playing in both audio rooms: the live Led Zeppelin DVD. :rolleyes: (I like Led Zep, but do NOT like it for speaker auditions! :mad: ) I didn't get to hear the RTi10 very well, and it was no help that they had this system hooked to a subwoofer! The only other Polks they had were some of the mini sub/sat systems.

Not an LSi in sight...anywhere. Ditto that for sales personnel. Overall, a terrible representation of Polk's product line. And basically, according to the Polk site, there's nobody else in the area that carries the LSi line!

Very frustrating. I have not yet checked Circuit City for closeouts on the RTi line, but the more I've been reading about it, the LSi may be the more musical speaker, and likely will be the series I go with. A shame I can't find any way locally to audition them, especially with some of my own vinyl.