Today marks 502 years of the start of the Reformation. Happy Halloween, too!

gp4jesus

Brought to you by Martin Luther and a host of very brave colleagues.

jdjohn

Oh yeah, the German heretic dude I'm still hungover from the 500th anniversary party

verb

Interesting, did not know that! Here's a link for more info:
https://www.history.com/topics/reformation/reformation

jdjohn

Kind of started (or was able to start) with the Gutenberg Bible in 1450s, which was the first time the bible was printed using movable metal type (a press). Once the Bible was more mass-produced, people who knew Latin could read it for themselves instead of relying on a priest to interpret. Luther translated the Bible into German, which then really opened things up.

gp4jesus

verb wrote: »

Interesting, did not know that! Here's a link for more info:
https://www.history.com/topics/reformation/reformation

Pretty good, concise info source - I picked up a few details. A couple of important omissions:
1. Erasmus, a Catholic priest, in the early 1500s printed and published five Koine* Greek* texts, from one, Luther translated his german New Testament.
2. William Tyndale likely used the 2nd Erasmus edition, Luther’s NT, & the Latin Vulgate to translate a very good English translation, the first of 6** published during the 1500s. Sadly he was betrayed, “tried,” & burned at the stake. His last words were “May God open the eyes of the King.”
3. Queen Mary strove to return England to Catholicism. To that end she earned the nick name “Bloody Mary” because she had many, mostly reformers, killed. She was the cause of the Marian exile or exodus to Europe.
*Koine Greek - the common language of the Mediterranean bordering & near-by counties from ~300 BC to the mid 300s AD
**the other 5 published by other people.

There’s a lot more to this but you get it.

Enjoy, Tony

tonyb

Interesting history there.....but my take away is, in 500 years we still are seeing religious persecution even today. Sad in way, that we just can't seem to learn from past mistakes. Guess that's why they say history repeats itself.

Now, as for the Bible itself, didn't Constantine sort of put this to rest way earlier in Europe ?

rooftop59

tonyb wrote: »

Now, as for the Bible itself, didn't Constantine sort of put this to rest way earlier in Europe ?

Not really, Constantine made Christianity the official state religion, Sunday became a holy day, you had to be Christian to serve in the Roman army, etc. but there were only Latin translations of the Bible and you had to be rich to own a copy: so all you knew was what your priest told you. Fast forward 1000 years and no one except wealthy, highly educated people speak or read Latin, and the church’s authority in Europe is waining in large part due to the renaissance and the recovery Greco-Roman humanism. This turn back to ancient texts and ancient languages inspired Luther and Tyndale to translate the Bible into the common language. This combined with the printing press allows common people to read the Bible and question what the church is was teaching them. Fast forward another 500 years and we have a million Christian denominations...lol

mhardy6647

fun times

Luther, interestingly (and perhaps ironically) paved the way for secularism by catalyzing the loosening of the (Roman Catholic) church's sway over (Northern) Europe.

I'll refrain from further comment, being a long-time Lutheran myself

jdjohn

tonyb wrote: »

Now, as for the Bible itself, didn't Constantine sort of put this to rest way earlier in Europe ?

You may be referring to the Biblical 'canon' of scripture - the official books that were included. There is a whole other history about that, and varies between Eastern/Greek Orthodox, Western/Roman Catholic, Lutheran, other Protestants, etc. As usual, each sect differed, albeit only by a few books, and to this day, there are still variations. The Bible most of us are familiar with today originated with the King James Version, from the Church of England (Anglican, Episcopal), except for the 14 Apocryphal books in the middle.

tonyb

mhardy6647 wrote: »

fun times

Luther, interestingly (and perhaps ironically) paved the way for secularism by catalyzing the loosening of the (Roman Catholic) church's sway over (Northern) Europe.

I'll refrain from further comment, being a long-time Lutheran myself

Interesting, because if they paved the way for secularism, Constantine's main objective was to avoid it, and unite people under one for better control. So in essence, they moved backwards.

Boggles the mind, such a sorted history of religion, wars fought over it, and still do today.

mhardy6647

We (the US) likely* wouldn't have come to be were it not for the Protestant Reformation.
The Renaissance also might've come even more slowly (although that is probably much more debatable).

The irony of religions and wars is part and parcel of the Christian ethos -- in that Christianity posits that all are sinful, which is why a personal, individual Savior is needed. Or, as an old pastor of ours (who also happened to be one of my high school teachers, in a previous life) used to say:

The Church is full of hypocrites -- and that's the best place for 'em!

____________
* unfortunately, it's not possible to test this with a controlled study -- sorta like the causal factors of the ongoing shift in meteorological conditions.

tonyb

oh, I can verify the biggest hypocrites I know are mostly all holy rollers. Which begs to question if any of them own a mirror.

nooshinjohn

Then there is the Nag-Hammadi texts that portray a much different version of Christianity than the RC church wished to be seen by the world, and of course, the Knights Templar, which seemed to be following the ways of the Hammedic texts even though they were a prefecture of the Pope.

tonyb

Religion goes back to the beginning of man. We created these deities to help us understand that which we couldn't comprehend. Worshippers of the Sun, stars, pagan gods, Norse mythology, Greek, Chinese, etc.

Which one is right ? Does it matter ? Does either one have to be necessarily "right" ?

Something almost impossible to prove. Yet it creates sects, certain separations in gathering human colonies. Ever wonder why the Vatican is so secretive ? They've done a good job in early Europe scooping up anything that goes against their teachings.

In the past, religion was a cause of great wars and today some are still fought over it. Here in America, where we enjoy religious freedoms, I would suggest that people of faith no matter which, are more prone to be upstanding citizens, more value to society in general. Imagine if we had none....would we still retain a moral compass ? Or would things descend into chaos ?

No better example than today in our own country, as people are falling away from faith, chaos seems to be taking hold.

BTW- I'm not saying people of little or no faith are scums of the earth. It's entirely possible to have a moral compass and not be attached to a certain religion. Though I might ask those people where they got a moral compass from to begin with.

gp4jesus

tonyb wrote: »

Interesting history there.....but my take away is, in 500 years we still are seeing religious persecution even today. Sad in way, that we just can't seem to learn from past mistakes. Guess that's why they say history repeats itself.

+1 on the persecution. What’s sadder still is through the end of the 1600s Christians were persecution Christians.

tonyb wrote: »

Now, as for the Bible itself, didn't Constantine sort of put this to rest way earlier in Europe ?

Well... Constantine was dead quite a few years before Jerome published (~400 AD) the first (Latin) bible

gp4jesus

jdjohn wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Now, as for the Bible itself, didn't Constantine sort of put this to rest way earlier in Europe ?

You may be referring to the Biblical 'canon' of scripture - the official books that were included.

finalized near the end of the 3rd century

jdjohn wrote: »

There is a whole other history about that, and varies between Eastern/Greek Orthodox, Western/Roman Catholic, Lutheran, other Protestants, etc. As usual, each sect differed, albeit only by a few books, and to this day, there are still variations.

the earlier editions of the KJV included the 14 books of the Apocrypha. The RCC still includes them. Off hand, can’t say for the Eastern Orthodox.

jdjohn wrote: »

The Bible most of us are familiar with today originated with the King James Version, from the Church of England (Anglican, Episcopal), except for the 14 Apocryphal books in the middle.

The Bibles most of us are familiar with today originated with William Tyndale. Per the 22 page “translators to the reader” you will find the phrase: “We didn’t make a bad translation good. We made a good translation** better.”

Most bible scholars agree the KJV is about 80% Tyndale’s work; about 70% word for word. Each of the six translations* that followed Tyndale’s was an update/improvement of the previous. Today’s bibles have been improved w/discovery of very early manuscripts, many dated from the 200s & 300s.
* Geneva bible fans would beg to differ and history clearly indicates something similar
** was the sixth

tonyb

gp4jesus wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Interesting history there.....but my take away is, in 500 years we still are seeing religious persecution even today. Sad in way, that we just can't seem to learn from past mistakes. Guess that's why they say history repeats itself.

+1 on the persecution. What’s sadder still is through the end of the 1600s Christians were persecution Christians.

Christians are still being persecuted through out the middle east. Sad thing is, is it hasn't really ended. Takes a vacation every now and then, and kicks up again. You never see stories on it, media turns a blind eye. Same with the Jews.

But if one Kurd dies, it's front page news.

I've got a question for the group. Is religion really a religion, if you tie politics/government to it ? Take the Muslim faith for example. It's a way of life, both in faith and governing.

Now, certainly they weren't the first and only to incorporate faith in such a way. I'm just curious about your thoughts on what constitutes a religion, and should there be a separation of faith and governing. Whether it's bad or good, is irrelevant.

I kind of see it as blurring the lines, but ya know, to each his own on how they want to live.

nooshinjohn

I cannot comment in open forum about Islam... I would be banned for life in a nanosecond. To another point, this tread is dancing around a very slippery slope, so I thought I would get this in before the close.

rooftop59

Whose gonna close it??? Seems pretty academic and civil compared to cable or SDA debates...

tonyb

Yeah, religion is also banned so we should probably ditch that discussion. Even though I found the historical aspects interesting.

Oh well, what was the thread about again ? Halloween ??

B000 !!!!

nooshinjohn

….

gp4jesus

Is

rooftop59 wrote: »

... Seems pretty academic and civil compared to cable or SDA debates...

Is academic & civil a bad thing?

@nooshinjohn: what does “….” mean?

On another note I like the “...dreams...” part of your sig. Reminds me of how “cant” is short for
“can, not trying.”
Sadly, we have a few members saying to themselves the above (dreams, etc) over their systems because a few dollars and some sweat, a lot of sweat sometimes, separates them from the same. The info and encouragement abounds!


Have a great Thanksgiving, y’all!

amanwaa

Does it really work?

boston1450

^^^^ SPAM

gp4jesus

amanwaa wrote: »

Does it really work?

does “it” “what” really work? I’m sorry I missed your reply