Another RTi A5 vs RTi A7 Thread. Need insight.

rt10guy

Hello All,

OK. I recently replaced my classic Polk RT-10 speakers with a pair of RTiA5's. I had been constantly flip-flopping on getting the A5's vs A7's. The general take on the internet is that the A7's need much more power and some people like the A5's sound better. Most people seem to the think the A7's are power hungry and that the A5's are a better value, epecially if paired with a subwoofer (which I do indeed have).

My immediate take is that the A5's sounded a little less "full" than my RT-10's. The RT-10 has a single 8" woofer where the A5's have dual 6.5" mid/woof. Initially I was a bit disappointed since I thought the dual drivers would make up for the smaller size. I can't help but to think that the dual 7" woofers of the A7's would add more deep bass to the sound and that the overall sound would be "fuller".

Regardless of which speaker I choose, I will be using a subwoofer anyway. The frequence response of the A5 is 40hz-26k where the A7 is 35hz-26k. Will that extra 5hz of low end make much of a difference? Will I even notice it since I'll be using a subwoofer?

I have a Yamaha Aventage RXA-1040. It's 110W/ch, 7.1 system. I only use 5 speakers, so I decided to Bi-Amp my A5's with the extra two channels. I mostly use my speakers for HT but we listen to music as well. Will I be underpowering the A7's with this kind of setup?

So, Polkies, would I get a noticeable improvement by sending back the A5's and getting A7's? Unfortunately, there's no local dealer where I can go listen, so I have to rely on opinions.

gudnoyez

That's not biamping what your doing and that AVR wont be up to the task to properly power the A7s. I have A3's A5's and A9's at times I switch the A5's with FXIA6's. A Parasound A31 runs the A9's and the CSIA6 up front the Onkyo TX838 AVR runs the A5's and A3's with no problem. Your problem is you need to use an external amp for better results especially should you decide to switch to the A7's.

rt10guy

Hi, Thanks for the response. It seems like I would really have to upgrade my AVR to fully appreciate the A7's. Perhaps I need to stop second-guessing my decision on the A5's.

About the Bi-Amping. I suppose true bi-amping would be to use a separate amp other than the amp in my AVR. However, the configuration screen in my AVR allows me to put it in "Bi-Amp 5.1 ch mode", as opposed to 71 channel mode. I am driving the upper and lower part of the speakers with 4 different channels of my AVR, as opposed to simply bi-wiring it with two sets of wires from the same two channels.

I suppose you could call this configuration a "poor man's" bi-amping. lol

I appreciate your insight on the A7's.

Geoff4rfc

rt10guy wrote: »

About the Bi-Amping. I suppose true bi-amping would be to use a separate amp other than the amp in my AVR.

I think almost every manufacturer advertises the option, or feature, of bi-amping your front mains with the extra set of binding posts, that is as long as you're tailoring to a 5.1 set up using an AVR with 7 sets of binding posts.

Bench tests will show that the majority of AVR's lose power per channel with each channel you implement to your set up, that's why in the specs section of each AVR, it lists the power rating with only (2) channels driven. Add two more, or three more and the power per channel is significantly less.

So when you bi-amp per an AVR like it says you can, it also doesn't tell you that the AVR is not supplying as much power as you thought it would. And, that is not real bi-amping, merely a marketing gimmick each manufacturer takes advantage of.

To successfully bi-amp, you not only need to use two separate external power sources, you also need to be aware of the passive crossovers.

Here is only one example....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-amping_and_tri-amping

pitdogg2

Most every AVR's in your range are down to 40/50wpc x 5 some less. Some manufacturers fudge on the spec's also by saying 110 x 5 or 7 at 6 ohm by using the 1khz frequency instead of the 20hz to 20,000khz range. 1khz is right smack in the middle of our hearing range and super easy to achieve that power rating for a short period of time. So in reality your AVR may only be 65- 70 wpc at 8 ohm with the 20hz to 20,000 khz x 2 and way down when 5 or more channels are in play at once. Power supplies are one of the most expensive parts of the AVR and the first area they cut cost to give you a plethora of codacs to use to play movies.

Codacs i.e. Dolby digital, DTS, DD master audio, DTS HD master audio, Dolby atmos etc, etc these all cost money for the rights to use in AVR's

mrloren

Do not bi-amp no, no. Replace the brass jumper with speaker wire.

set the speakers to small and set the cross over to 60 or 80hz. Let the sub do the work for the low end.

rpf65

Listened to the RTA A5’s and 7’s side by side, years ago, at Fry’s. Used a mid range Denon reciever, don’t remember the model. Trust me when I say I knew less than nothing about audio.

The A5’s sounded much better than the A7’s.

Since then I’ve learned the reason was power, actually current. Those extra drivers in the A7’s really want a lot of power, and that AVR just didn’t have enough.

Ran those A5’s on a 5xx series Yamaha with CSI A4, FXI A6, and RTI A1’s, for 7.1 surround. Think published specs on that AVR was 90 watts per channel, and it no issues driving those speakers at around 70dB, in a 16x22 room.

Upgraded that AVR to the Yamaha RX-A2060, and they only sounded better. Ran that set-up as high as 85dB on a few occasions with no issues. This would be slightly over half way on the volume scale, so I didn’t want to go any higher.

If you’re only going to use an AVR for your system, I would strongly suggest the A5’s over the A7’s. If on the other hand you plan on adding an amp, go with the A7’s.

Since I ran the LSIM 705/706C with the same AVR, and started hearing distortion around the 70 dB range, I never pushed those above 60. Those are all measured readings from my normal listening position, using the trusty Radio Shack meter.

I would expect that you would see similar results with the RTI A7’s as I experienced with the LSIM 705’s. I personally think the RTI A5’s are an extremely capable speakers for HT duty, provided you accompany them with a capable sub.

rt10guy

Thanks for the advice! It makes me feel much better about my choice on the A5's. I seem to always suffer from Analysis Paralysis, both pre and post purchase.

I see you have (or had) a Yamaha RXA-2060. Indeed, that's more powerful than my AVR and one model higher than what I have. I do intend to eventually replace my AVR with another Yamaha because I want the Dolby Atmos capability and 4K for future upgrades.

I'm not ready now but within the next couple of years I see myself moving up to a Yamaha RXA-20x0 or maybe even the 30x0, but for now I'm stuck with the 1040.

mantis

I support many of the things said above.
My take is this as well. Run those A5's in Small and cross them over at 80hz. Nothing below 80hz matters in a main speaker of a theater system or a stereo system when you have a subwoofer. The Sub woofer can be placed in the room correctly to pressurize the room and really make the bigger difference then going with a stronger floor standing or bookshelf style speaker.
Don't bother bi amping. Use speaker wire or even just the jumpers included and just use quality correct gauge wire for the length and power output you have with the ohm load of the speaker a factor. 12-14 gauge is all you need.
Having a more powerful AVR is everything to me. Never having the amp strain and distort is key. I always buy more power then I need so Have plenty of head room. I have spec a AVR to just make it in the size of the room and the load of the speakers. I at least go one model up from that will work.
Placement will greatly improve your overall sound quality as well as some room treatments. The first order reflection if you can treat that you will at least make a huge improvement on your overall sound quality.
Both speakers are great especially for the money. I like both of them and might even favor the 5's.

Viking64

I think we need a "Bi-Amping" thread to bump each time this comes up like the "Proper Way to PM" thread.

msg

Curious, why did you replace your RT-10s?
What other speakers are you running in your 5-speaker system?

The RTi/A series is known for being bright sounding. Put another way, seemingly biased toward greater presence in the highs. The frequency range doesn't balance out with greater volume. It could be that the audio spectrum seems lacking just because the highs are overwhelming.

Personally, I'd return anything RTi/A if you can, and switch over to the Signature series if music is a factor anywhere in this system. You've indicated that it is.

RTi/A is great for HT, but I had RTi10s, a previous version of the RTi/A7s you were considering, and that series was unlistenable for me with respect to music. Just too hot up top, and sounded empty, even with a 200wpc amp knowing for having a warmer signature. Great for HT, though. I later tried some Signature series speakers and they were much better, and more suitable in my experience/opinion for dual-use systems.

F1nut

^ Good advice ^

mantis

msg wrote: »

Curious, why did you replace your RT-10s?
What other speakers are you running in your 5-speaker system?

The RTi/A series is known for being bright sounding. Put another way, seemingly biased toward greater presence in the highs. The frequency range doesn't balance out with greater volume. It could be that the audio spectrum seems lacking just because the highs are overwhelming.

Personally, I'd return anything RTi/A if you can, and switch over to the Signature series if music is a factor anywhere in this system. You've indicated that it is.

RTi/A is great for HT, but I had RTi10s, a previous version of the RTi/A7s you were considering, and that series was unlistenable for me with respect to music. Just too hot up top, and sounded empty, even with a 200wpc amp knowing for having a warmer signature. Great for HT, though. I later tried some Signature series speakers and they were much better, and more suitable in my experience/opinion for dual-use systems.

We all have to consider the cost of the RT and RTiA series speakers. This is a more entry level into the mid range of good speakers on the market.
When one is experiencing such highs there are a few things that can be done.
1) Using an AVR that is on the warmer side like Pioneer Elite, Denon and Marantz. These AVR's tend to lean to the mid range first then bass then round out the high end.
2) Room treatments and considering first order reflections. This also tends to lean speakers to sounding bright or harsh. Tipically the RT series all of them have a very bright tweeter and not so much a warm mid range. This is how they sound and there comes a time in a man's life where moving on from them is necessary.But in the mean time working with them with placement room treatments and warm equipment can and will provide a nice balance of both music and movies.

Inspector 24

Why isn't there a sticky/pinned to top thread about Bi-Amping yet?

rt10guy

msg wrote: »

Curious, why did you replace your RT-10s?
What other speakers are you running in your 5-speaker system?

I replaced my RT-10's because the woofer on one speaker failed. This was the second time the same woofer on the same speaker failed. The first time I bought a replacement woofer on ebay and it worked for about 3 years or so, then I recently discovered that the woofer had failed again. This time I decided to just replace the speakers.

I already have a CSiA6 center speaker so I figured I would just stay with the same line of speakers since I figured they would be sound-matched.

An issue is that there are no local dealers where I can go listen to Polk speakers around here. I had to buy based on research and opinion. Also, replacement speakers were an unexpected expense so I didn't want to buy more than I needed to. If I went with the Signature speakers then I'd have to get the matching center speaker as well which is not an expense I'm willing to take on right now.

Would the Signature series speakers sound out-of-sync with the CSiA6 Center speaker? I assume so. If I could hear some Signature speakers I could potentially send the A5's back and get the Signature speakers if they would fit with my CSiA6 center.

Viken

mrloren

I used a CSiA6 with my Signature S60 and it did good real good. The CSiA6 did well on movies with my LSiM-705 till I put on an SACD then the brightness showed.

I owned RTi-8's before the Signatures, I did everything I could to be able to listen to music with them, thank goodness for the Signatures.

msg

Viken, yeah, see Loren's note. Perfect example of what you're looking at.

For additional info in timbre matching concern, I ran the Signature S20s for a while with an LSiM706 center, and the system did not sound "off" to me. So as you can see, the Signature series is pretty flexible in this respect with at least two different Polk speaker lines. Might be worth checking into them if you can work it out. But yeah, I feel your frustration in trying to choose a speaker when there aren't any places nearby to demo them. I was in the same situation.

rt10guy

So let's say I sent back the RtiA5's and got the Signature S55, which is what I would want to get since it has the same size drivers as the A5's. Would I run into the same problem as I would have with the A7's - not enough power to drive them?

I would imagine that I would be able to drive the S55's with just my AVR as-is. It has the same size drivers as the A5's so I would hope that I would be able to just plug-n-play.

I don't consider myself an audiophile, but I enjoy quality sound. Since I tend to keep things for a long time I wanna make sure I make the right speaker choice for me. My usage is mostly TV/HT but we listen to music a bunch too. The speaker should be all-purpose. But, I don't want to have to buy separate amps and get an elaborate setup.

My main complaint with the A5's is that they sound a little "thin" - at least compared to the RT10. When I first got the A5's I attached only one speaker and listened to one RT10 and one A5 and I felt like the RT10 sounded "warmer" or "fuller". If the Signature S55's sound that much better than the A5's, I may trade-up.

Geoff4rfc

Send your A5's back, save up and snag a pair of LSiM703's on the next super sale.

dolbyd

I owned RT 10s back in the day. Good speaker.
Your assessment is correct they are warmer speaker.
I own RTi’s and have a family member that just went from RT55s to the Signature 55s. He runs them with a Marantz 5013. They are an all-around great speaker. If you do both music and theater and don’t want to compromise as much this is your speaker. If the theater is your thing you need a good sub with your A5s.
Given you like the Rt10 Sound. I think the 55s or 60s are your speaker to get. A good sub will make both speakers sound complete.

mrloren

Signatures don't need the power RTi's do, Yes having an amp on them does them justice but it's not needed like with the RTi line.

When I first got my S60's we had a party I turned off the sub and ran them off just the Marantz SR5010 in full range. Lots of deep bass very nice speaker. When Polk demo them for us they used an old Onkyo low end AVR, way better than my RTi's.

F1nut

My highly modified RTiA7's, CSiA6 and FXiA6's sound fine for HT driven by a Pioneer Elite AVR, no amp needed. I have other much better rigs for music.

rt10guy

So, I'm a little confused here. Which speaker line is considered "Higher"? Looking at the Polk site, they seem to highlight the Signature series over the RTi series. When you look at the speaker lineup, they show the Legend series, then Lsi, followed by Signature, RTi, then finally the T series. if you consider the MSRP price, the RTi's are higher than the Signature for similar spec speakers. I note that the MSRP on the RTiA5's is $400 where the MSRP on the S55 is $330.

Are the RTi's in a phase-out period?

I know that this may sound weird but I don't want to trade down. If I'm gonna send back the RTiA5's, I'd at least like to trade-up. I got the A5's for $239 each at Crutchfield. The S55's are $329/ea. If I send back the A5's, I'll have to pay a fixed $75 fee, plus I'd have to pay $329 for the S55's. So, in essence, I'd be paying more for a "lower" class speaker.

I suppose, in the end, it all about what your ears tell you. Still, it's a real hassle to have to mail-order the speakers then send them back with a restocking fee and losing some money.

hmmmmmmmm....

F1nut

The RTiA series is being phased out.

rooftop59

The rtia series has a little better build quality, real wood veneers etc. but virtually everyone on this forum prefers the signatures to the rtia for music. So, you just have to decide what’s more important to you...

mrloren

I'd take the Signatures over RTi any day. Now if you mod RTi like @F1nut then it's a who knows.

Few weeks ago NewEgg had a killer deal on Signatures S60 for like $200 each.

rpf65

If you don’t like the way the RTI A series sound, there is no sense in keeping them. May cost a little to send them back, but it’s money well spent.

Besides, $75 isn’t really a lot if you plan on keeping speakers for 10 or 15 years. Do the math. Much like cars, speakers are long term rentals.

F1nut

My take. If you want speakers more for music then the stock RTiA isn't for you. However, I find the Signature's sound a bit chesty/boxy, so if you really want the best Polk speaker for music the LSiM 705 or the new L600 would be a better choice.

Geoff4rfc

F1nut wrote: »

so if you really want the best Polk speaker for music the LSiM 705 or the new L600 would be a better choice.

Lol, yep, this was along the lines of my suggestion a few clicks back, just grab a pair of 703's on another super sale.....

msg

rt10guy wrote: »

I suppose, in the end, it all about what your ears tell you.

Yeah, don't get caught up in classes. Like you say here, it's about the sound, ultimately, and the speaker value.

Nice looking/built speakers that don't sound good to you are essentially worthless. I will say that the Signature series is a minor step down in cabinet/enclosure quality than the RTiA, since, like Rooftop says, the RTi/A series used real wood veneer and the fronts/baffles are really nicely built on the RTi/A. However, the Signatures are going to be a better fit sound quality wise for a dual purpose system.

The Signature series just came out in late 2016, if I'm not mistaken, so they didn't really exist at the same time the RTiA series did/does, so while you can?, you can't really compare the two. They're made for different functions. I think Polk saw that people were frustrated with RTi/A for dual use systems, and the Signature bridged the gap between HT and 2ch for that costpoint. They all have their place.

I agree with much of what's been said above. Good recommendations here on a possible move to LSiM on the next Adorama blowout. LSiM would probably be your end-game speaker. I'll have mine forever, I think.

703s are the large bookshelf speakers that play bigger than they are. They sound great for music, and work well in theater (Signatures slightly edging them out in HT use), and the 705s are the next up the line and a floor stander. LSiM are going to cost you more right now, but if you really want to buy a higher quality Polk speaker that will last you and serve you best for music, the LSiM would be the way to go.

Otherwise, the S55s and a decent sub will probably suit you nicely.

You'll want the sub whichever way you go. Check out product from HSU Research or SVS, and also take a look at the used markets around you to see what else is available nearby.

mrloren

^^^^^^ Yes good sub is a must^^^^^ Me likes it when house is shaking

A set of S55 and dual VTS2-MK5 http://hsuresearch.com/subwoofers.html would be a great setup for both HT and music. VTF3-MK5 is a great on both too, just dual VTF3 might be a little much for some. Then again if I had the room I'd have two.