Amp Choice

bogobogo Posts: 53
edited May 2004 in 2 Channel Audio
I currently have a pair of LSi9's runnong off a pioneer receiver with Kimber 4Tc Cable - this is running at 8 ohm's at present. I am going to be buying a NAD C272 power amp (http://www.nadelectronics.com/hifi_amplifiers/C272_framset.htm) and will be running these speakers at 4 ohm and in a bi-wired configuration.

I think these sound great already. What will I expect from going from a mediocre amp to something with a bit of balls. The receiver is 5 x 130RMS and actually sounds pretty good. The only think I think will miss is the learning remote.

I just finished my own stands, http://pictures.baldacchino.net/audio?page=3 had them powder coated and am pretty proud for my first attempt. They weigh in at 23kg each (approx 52lbs), I think I may have over engineered them.


Thanks
Shane Baldacchino

Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator
Microsoft Certified Professional
A+ Hardware and Software Technician

http://scriptandcode.com - Your trusted partner for your scripting and code needs.
Post edited by bogo on

Comments

  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,956
    edited May 2004
    Bogo,

    What is running at 8 ohms? The LSi's are a nominal 4 ohm load, so if your receiver is only capable of running at 8 ohms then the LSi's are killing it. The Nad is a good move and will be a major step up, but IMO bag the bi-wire idea and buy the best single run you can afford. Use the same type wire to make replacement jumpers.

    Why would you miss a learning remote? You can buy one at just about any hifi shop.

    The stands look good, I don't think you can over-engineer those.

    F1

    BTW, whatever happened with the cracked housing?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • bogobogo Posts: 53
    edited May 2004
    At present the pioneer amp in my pictures sends an 8 ohm signal to the LSi9's. I do realise they are 4 ohm. The cracked housing is still there as much as it pisses me off no-one wants to help me. Polk cant provide laminate and Riken-USA are usless. I could sell them on ebay and buy a new pair. They are close to 2.2k in Australia a pair.

    Um the cable I have is meant to be great (http://www.kimber.com/4tc.htm) and have read good reviews, heck it cost me around $65 a metre in Australia. Why do you recommend not using bi-wiring.

    Will I also notice a difference with the NAD amp. Will they act like new speakers.

    Oh btw thanks your original reply.


    Thanks
    Shane Baldacchino

    Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
    Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator
    Microsoft Certified Professional
    A+ Hardware and Software Technician

    http://scriptandcode.com - Your trusted partner for your scripting and code needs.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,956
    edited May 2004
    Originally posted by bogo
    Will I also notice a difference with the NAD amp. Will they act like new speakers.


    In a word....Yes!

    It is my experience that bi-wiring is a pile of hype.....I tried it and get better results by replacing the jumpers. If you do some research on the subject I think you'll find most folks agree that it's hype. The real reason speakers have two sets of binding posts is for bi-amping.

    2.2k......damn! What's the exchange rate? You might be better off buying a pair here and having them shipped.

    F1
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • bogobogo Posts: 53
    edited May 2004
    Thats what I did, I bought my LSi9's off the net for $605US, bargain and brand new. It's not worth buying authorised I could by 2 sets almost for RRP.

    If you see my pictures I received a nice happy birthday parcel from the USA (I have a mate in Texas). In it was the speakers, a nice analog interconnect cable, a 2000w line conditioner and a 24bit/192khz 108db snr sound card.

    I look forward to the amp - i am heading over to the USA for work on may 11 and returning back to Australia June 18. Hope to pick up a dirt cheap NAD c272 for 650US and then spend $70US on a step down convertor. The AMP is close to 3k here. You really dont know how lucky you have it.


    Thanks
    Shane Baldacchino

    Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
    Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator
    Microsoft Certified Professional
    A+ Hardware and Software Technician

    http://scriptandcode.com - Your trusted partner for your scripting and code needs.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,956
    edited May 2004
    Ah, I see you've got everything under control. If you're going to be anywhere near Washington DC. let me know, we can hook up...maybe even get you a peek in at Polk HQ's.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • bogobogo Posts: 53
    edited May 2004
    I am afraid I am not going anywhere near Washington DC. Although my US geography is a bit sparse. I will be between LA and CO. Perfroming a datacentre migration of 70 machines and various modules (remote power towers/load balaers/routers etc). Going to be making 4 trips in the car between LA and Denver - oh thats some driving.

    You sound like a nice guy F1nut, visiting Polk would be cool but really doesn't interest myself that much. In all honesty and I know this is a Polk forum but Polk (not naming names) were not helpful at all. They could not even tell me who made their cabinents. Their stance was they were outsourced, see this company in Melbourne, Australia for a new cabinet. Oh wait a second a new cabinet in Australia is $800 (700US) and I paid only $600US for a pair plus 300AUD in shipping, that experience has type of soured myself on Polk, yet I have to agree after fixing my LSi9's myself (ripping them apart, the problem was a air leak in a gasket not sealing) they sound amazing. Mind you this problem was probably a manufacturing defect I have to say.

    Okay enough bitching Polk make great sounding speakers and I am appreciative of your feedback. If you ever need a small favour such as scripting work done feel free to give msyelf a hollor. http://scriptandcode.com si where you can contact myself, this will soon be replaced with what you see at http://win2003.scriptandcode.com/netplugin

    Also is it just me or is Polk's corporate website unbearably slow to browse. the layout and content is great but it is so slow. Hopefully one day they will load balance it or distribute load / improve code efficency to improve performance.


    Thanks
    Shane Baldacchino

    Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
    Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator
    Microsoft Certified Professional
    A+ Hardware and Software Technician

    http://scriptandcode.com - Your trusted partner for your scripting and code needs.
  • bogobogo Posts: 53
    edited May 2004
    Oh I missed one of your points, the exhange rate is around 75c. 1 Australian dollar buys .75 or so of your dollar. Hence a pair of LSi9's are very expensive(1500-1700USapprox depending where you shop). In the last 2 years Australia has had the strongest economoy of any Western country. In 2001 our dollar was only worth 50c. Or dollar has increased against the US by 50% yet pries have not changed. Those importers are either making more cash or have old stock they cant afford to loose money on. If you think Polk are badly priced in Australia Sony is worse or on par so it pays to shop around be couragous and buy overseas. Having to get a step down convertor for the NAD but its worth it.


    Thanks
    Shane Baldacchino

    Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
    Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator
    Microsoft Certified Professional
    A+ Hardware and Software Technician

    http://scriptandcode.com - Your trusted partner for your scripting and code needs.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,956
    edited May 2004
    Sorry to hear about your bad experience with getting a replacement cabinet, doesn't sound like the normal customer service. I can understand them not wanting to disclose their source, but I can't understand why they couldn't ship you one at a good price.

    Anyway, it's a shame you're not coming closer, but I hope you enjoy your stay here and thanks for the offer.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • bogobogo Posts: 53
    edited May 2004
    My main gripe is that the laminate is one piece, surely pook could get myself one or put in touch with their cabinent makers. The best I could do was find out who made the laminate. I quite like the USA, its much like Australia. People are friendly goods are cheap yet your lifestyle I would have to say is a bit scarier with shooting daily it seems. I added up what I have spent on audio for my bedroom the other day quite scary, I wish I put it toward sports bike instead. Anyhow thank you for the advice and I await for it to make a big difference. At present I think the pioneer does a decent job - I wonder what I will hear.


    Thanks
    Shane Baldacchino

    Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
    Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator
    Microsoft Certified Professional
    A+ Hardware and Software Technician

    http://scriptandcode.com - Your trusted partner for your scripting and code needs.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,956
    edited May 2004
    Yes, the two countries are similar. I have relatives in Australia who come here for a visit every so often and have commented as such. I really need to come to Australia to visit with them.

    As for the shootings....for the most part it's a certain type in a certain area of the larger cities. Basically, they have nothing to lose and no respect for themselves, life or anybody else......sad really. One could speculate that without easy access to guns the shootings/murders would be less, but with those elements they would use a knife or some other weapon...not much hope for them I'm afraid. The glorification of guns, drug use and other violence in movies and particularly rap music isn't helping either.

    This hobby of ours can get a bit pricey and the upgrade bug never seems to go away, but damn is it fun! :D After you get the amp post a review of what you do hear, good or bad. I'll look forward to it.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Dr. SpecDr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited May 2004
    Violent crime has steadily increased "down under" since legal citizen ownership of nearly all firearms was banned. Seems Aussie criminals aren't worried anymore about getting shot back at.

    Anyway, bogo - I'm in the middle of upgrading to external amplification myself, so I'll also post my thoughts on the subject when I'm finished with the project. The LSi certainly performs best on a high current diet, it seems.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • bogobogo Posts: 53
    edited May 2004
    I am at the moment set on getting the NAD 272, if anyone else has any other thoughts in that price range I am happy to hear. 170w per channel at 4 ohms it will pump out. I am a lamen here with not much experience.

    Can someone just explain to myself why it will sound better than my 130RMS receiver which drives them at 8 ohm's

    The biggest improvement I have found is my stands - the trbble of the LSi9 is so much more clearly defined.


    Thanks
    Shane Baldacchino

    Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
    Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator
    Microsoft Certified Professional
    A+ Hardware and Software Technician

    http://scriptandcode.com - Your trusted partner for your scripting and code needs.
  • pjdamipjdami Posts: 1,898
    edited May 2004
    bogo,

    Those are some very nice stands that you have built. Did you weld the vertical rods to the bottom / upper plates? Or how did you attach them?

    I own the LSi 9s and at one point last year I had the NAD C270 power amp running the LSi 9. At first I was using a Yamaha receiver without the NAD, then I used the Yamaha with the NAD. You will find that the NAD power is correctly stated @ whatever the rating is from 20 - 20,000 hz whereas many receiver manufacturers "fudge" the power ratings by stating them as so many watts @ 1 khz or something like that.

    The upgrade to the NAD amp was phenomenal for me and far as headroom and dynamics. Really brought the LSi to life. The next big improvement was to get a dedicated two channel preamp for me. I purchased a B&K ST5 and this dedicated preamp totally changed the sonic signature of what was going on for the better. Much better seperation of instruments and clarity without as much "electronic glare" is the best way for me to put it.

    F1 makes a good point about the kimber wire. I have run the LSi 9s on kimber wire as well. Most definitely get rid of the brass jumpers and build some jumpers with the 4tc first. I believe the decision to biwire or not depends on the speakers. If you like the treble you have right now you can just run the single run. I have found that the LSi biwired is more to my liking because the LSi 9 is very flat sounding and biwiring helps to open them up more. Again personal taste and experimentation is in order here. Other speakers that I own from other manufacturers sound better witth the single run of cable and jumper made of the same cable.
  • bogobogo Posts: 53
    edited May 2004
    Wow thanks for noticing my stands, they are my pride and joy. I could not find a pair of decent stands that could swivel so I went to work and designed a pair. Yes they are welded. If i need to make a pair for some one else I might thread them so I can chrome the individual poles. As it is one piece I just had to powder coat them as chrome would turn to junk when welded. They took quit a bit of time to make the poles are recessed in to the top and bottom plates and are pretty much flush, I am meticulous in thing I own. At first I had two rectangular plates up top with teflon insert between them and grub screw securing them but I ended up rounding these, http://pictures.baldacchino.net/audio/P1010006 and http://pictures.baldacchino.net/audio/P1010016. The grub screw penetrates only enough in to the top plate so that it is flush and does not mar the finish of the speaker.

    I am happy to make these for anyone who is after a good set of stands, note they will not be cheap as they weigh in at around 50lbs a stand.

    Anyhow good to see Pjdami that you are pretty much running the same setup as myself. the C270 was superseded by the C272, it has a massive 170RMS x 2 and I am sure they are still very similar. I am glad to hear the sound was amazingly different. When you say make some jumpers do you mean stripping off enough of the 4tc, removing the jumpers on the back of the LSi9's and running them through both binding posts? I do really like the high end but would be keen to experiment. I think I will go bi wire with your comments of the bi-wire really opening up the speaker. What scares me you said adding a pre-amp helped. The budget is stretched enough. I have pretty much a roles royce sound card in PC, it is 24bit/192khz with a 108snr ratio, better than most receivers. Do I need a pre-amp and will it help my sound at all?
    This would have to be the most elaborate bedroom setup I know now, I figure with the line conditioner, speaker cable, sound card, interconnects, speakers, amp and step down converter I have spent some serious cash.

    Thank you for the great advice, good to see some one has the same gear and am happy that yours is sounding great.


    Thanks
    Shane Baldacchino

    Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
    Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator
    Microsoft Certified Professional
    A+ Hardware and Software Technician

    http://scriptandcode.com - Your trusted partner for your scripting and code needs.
  • pjdamipjdami Posts: 1,898
    edited May 2004
    Bogo,

    Are your 4TC factory terminated? If they are then I wouldn't mess with them. You can find Kimber wire bulk on the internet and build your own jumpers. I would use bananas or spades (opposite of what your main run has) to build your own. Let me know if you have trouble finding the wire in bulk. All you need is a three foot run to make 4 eight inch jumpers (8 inch is the standard length of two jumpers that I have).

    Here's a good link with all kind of goodies. They sell Kimber 4TC bulk at $8/ft:

    http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/wire.html

    I have no experience with computer rigs but these seem to be growing in popularity. Sorry I can't help you here. I'm sure that computer rigs will be something to contend with in the future.

    Also sorry to hear about your LSi 9 cracked face. With the covers on though you can't see it and it shouldn't affect the sound quality if there are no leaks at that point. I understand though if you are a perfectionist and a "neat" type of person that you would like to get it fixed.
  • bogobogo Posts: 53
    edited May 2004
    I have no idea about how to make jumpers, any pictures? I think for simplicity and I do like a very wide trebble based sound that I will stick to bi-wire. The cable actually cost a myself around $60AUD ($50US) a metre (grr Australia) and although and I would prefer to keep it in one piece. They are nofactory terminated. Does that help using spade bits etc. When you said jumper I was just thinking of removing the jumpers and stripping enough cable for both terminals to make contact.


    Thanks
    Shane Baldacchino

    Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
    Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator
    Microsoft Certified Professional
    A+ Hardware and Software Technician

    http://scriptandcode.com - Your trusted partner for your scripting and code needs.
  • pjdamipjdami Posts: 1,898
    edited May 2004
    bogo,

    You can use bare wire but it may oxidize and corrode with time. Spades have great contact area and banana plugs are convenient as well. You can buy the crimp on kind or the solder in kind. It helps to prevent degradation of the speaker wire. Don't strip the wire and insert between the two binding posts. Too many opportunities for a short and blowing a fuse on an amp or something with all that bare wire showing.

    If you do decide to do spades, which is what I like, be careful with measuring the LSi 9 binding post as it is quite wide.

    You can find spades or banana plugs at Radio Shack, Parts Express, that Parts Connection place link I sent you earlier has Kimber, Vampire, etc. as well.

    here's what they look like:

    http://www.diycable.com/main/default.php?cPath=26_44_48

    With all this being said, I do believe that biwiring with the LSi 9 in my humble experience provided the best results. Also, in the future, if you get the chance to try out some Kimber Hero interconnects they really go well with the Kimber speaker wire and the LSi. Thanks to Mantis for turning me on to that wire a while back.
  • bogobogo Posts: 53
    edited May 2004
    I didn't realise copper corrodes ;) Does the oxidising make a huge difference. Really I would have thought using a spade bit would add in some impedance on the line.Guess I am wrong. I think i will try without connectors for a while.
    As for interconnects I only use one and that is from my PC, http://monstercable.com/productPage.asp?pin=135
    I dont beleive Kimber make a RCA to Mini 1/8th.

    Thank you for advice I think I will be bi-wriring with my C272. On another note I will have to use a step down convertor plugged in to my line conditioner, would this affect my sound, I doubt it but I may aswell ask.


    Thanks
    Shane Baldacchino

    Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
    Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator
    Microsoft Certified Professional
    A+ Hardware and Software Technician

    http://scriptandcode.com - Your trusted partner for your scripting and code needs.
  • pjdamipjdami Posts: 1,898
    edited May 2004
    bogo,
    I didn't realise copper corrodes

    I guess corrosion really wouldn't be the technical term here. I've seen the "green" on copper wires before usually on the inexpensive stuff you can buy after many months of use. I'll have to do a little thinking on what the exact reaction is to make the "green" stuff not sure if its CuO or not.. too late at night for me right here right now.

    You can do bare wire. Many folks like this method. You just don't want to go years like this without checking to make sure the "green" stuff has appeared and affects the sonics any.

    Yeah, forgot about the soundcard thingy with the computer and the 1/8 inch plug. I'm running a monster cable 1/8 inch on my satellite radio setup.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,956
    edited May 2004
    Copper doesn't really corrode, it oxidizes.

    Why people think bare wire is good is beyond me, maybe it's because it's cheap. Give me a nice soldered and sealed gold plated connection every time. Anything less is just foolish.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • organorgan Posts: 5,022
    edited May 2004
    Hi Bogo,
    I own a NAD C270 and powered a pair of LSi9 for almost a year. You will hear a big difference compared to a receiver. The C270 had no problem at all powering the 9's. I think it's a great amp for the LSi because of NAD's 'Impedance Sensing Circuitry'. It will scan the impedance of your speakers and adjust its power supply to provide max power transfer. Like Paul said, a dedicated 2ch pre will also make a big difference because the amp will also amplify the sound signature of the pre section from your receiver if you decide to use the pre outs.

    Maurice
    CD Player: Original CD-A8T
    Receiver: Harman/Kardon HK3390
    Speakers: Polk Audio RT1000p
    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**
  • bogobogo Posts: 53
    edited May 2004
    I really can not afford a C160. I see no reason to get one.I think my PreAMP (http://soundblaster.com/products/Audigy2ZS_platinum_pro/) will be more than fine. Any suggestions. I am glad the C270 made a huge differnce.

    I will be going from a PC directly to the C272. Can you see any short comings in my sound Maurice?


    Thanks
    Shane Baldacchino

    Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
    Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator
    Microsoft Certified Professional
    A+ Hardware and Software Technician

    http://scriptandcode.com - Your trusted partner for your scripting and code needs.
  • organorgan Posts: 5,022
    edited May 2004
    I don't know anything about PC audio but if your soundcard is good, I don't see a problem. Sean (ATCVenom) knows a lot about PC audio.

    IMO, the C160 is not the right pre amp for the LSi9. With the 9's, I got better results from my Rotel and ASL pre amps. The C160/LSi9 is too laid back for me. It also has "heavy" sounding bass which makes the 9's boom too much for some music. It sounds excellent with my current mains though.

    Let us know how everything goes when you've got the amp hooked up. I'm sure you'll enjoy it a lot. Very powerful sounding amp.

    Maurice
    CD Player: Original CD-A8T
    Receiver: Harman/Kardon HK3390
    Speakers: Polk Audio RT1000p
    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**
  • bogobogo Posts: 53
    edited May 2004
    I will be sure to post when I get back to Australia, late June. I think it should okay the sound card is 24 bit, 192 khz with an SNR better than most high end gear of 108snr. I guess time will tell, I appreciate the feedback none the less;)


    Thanks
    Shane Baldacchino

    Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
    Microsoft Certified Systems Administrator
    Microsoft Certified Professional
    A+ Hardware and Software Technician

    http://scriptandcode.com - Your trusted partner for your scripting and code needs.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!