Looking for a good reciever

Keske944

Hello all I am well versed in car audio but am just getting into good quality home audio. I like to do things right the first time and not worry about them again. I am looking for a good Home theater reciever that can handle 2 LSi15's, 1 LSiC, 2 LSiFX, 2 LSi9, and 1 PSW505.

I am looking to spend about 2000 on a reciever. That is kinda what I want for a price limit. If it is capable of Dolby 7.3 even better as that is what I want in my setup. Like I said I try to do things right the first time so I don't need to do it again. Please let me know what you would recommend...


Thanks

PolkWannabie

If you want to do it "right" the first time then go with separates, not a receiver.:D

AsSiMiLaTeD

I agree with PW, separates is the way to go, but you may have issues budget-wise.

A good preamp/processor will cost you at least $1000 (I think), which leaves only another grand for amps, probably not enough.

YOu may be able to go with Outlaw and stay around that price range, Frank Z is the expert on Outlaw and will probably chip in here, if not I'd PM him...

I've never used Outlaw, but it's supposed to be really good stuff at a good price...

I'm sure there are other options as well, but it can get expensive quick. You may also consider a good high current receiver like an NAD or Rotel, or even H/K along with separate amps to help bi-amp your front main speakers...

Keske944

Alright... so go with seperates... just give me a list of what you would recommend and price ranges... You know componet name, brand, model number, and est price.

Thanks for all the help.

Adam

AsSiMiLaTeD

I think you'll want to decide most of that for yourself, just buy what sounds good to you...

You'll get a bunch of responses here, becuase everyone has different opinions. Ultimately, it all comes down to you doing a bit of research and lots of listening.

I'll provide a bit of advice...don't skimp on the amps...You wouldn't spend $2000 on a preamp and then go buy a bunch of Adcoms to drive your speakers (no offense Adcoms guys). The amps are the pieces of the equipment that you'll be keeping forever if you get good ones, as that technology doesn't really change that much...I'd plan on spending quite a bit on the amps...

Again, I'll throw Outlaw out there as an option as they seem to have quite a following. There are plenty out there, just head to a local hi-fi shop and see what you like.

danger boy

i'm with the others.. and it sounds like you are to now.. go with external amps. it's much better sounding than what you can get from a receivers amps.

on a side note.. did anyone buy one of those Carver amps from Onecall? it's like a 5 ch amp with 80wpc for like under $300. i was curious if anyone got one and what they thought about it.

good luck and have fun Keske944, come back and ask more questions.

dcarlson

Depending on your percentage of Movie/music listening, you may even want to look at 2 channel stereo as an option.

I went the receiver route only to switch to 2 channel.

PolkWannabie

Originally posted by Keske944
Alright... so go with seperates... just give me a list of what you would recommend and price ranges... You know componet name, brand, model number, and est price.

Thanks for all the help.

Adam

Adam,

As far as separates go you can probably put together a more than adaquete collection to drive the LSi's utilizing used gear. Don't cringe, there's no shame in this as there is loads of good used gear out there on Audiogon and eBay. I've populated my racks this way and at this level there are huge savings to be had buying slightly used and two weeks later no one will know whether you were the original owner or not.

Most folks here I think would chuckle at the "Doing things right the first time" comment. Not to make fun of you, but because most of us do things right, again and again and again. It just seems to never end. Even if your budget was $20k instead of $2k, a year or three down the road there will be changes you would want to make just because new technology came along or you heard something you wanted to try in your set up or whatever.

PolkWannabie

PS ... I know this above your budget, but since you mentioned receivers first, here's an example of a receiver that is probably capable of driving the LSi's ... http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?miscrcvr&1087926766 This is the previous model of this receiver and does NOT have Pro Logic IIx but it at least provides an idea of things that are out there. Although I happen to like Sunfire's gear, I would not go this route because it doesn't offer enough flexibility for me. The premp/processor section of the unit will be obsolete first and at some point in time you'd want to change it, but because the amps are also in the same box you will by definition also be trading amp.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Also keep in mind another route is to upgrade a bit at a time, which is what I'm doing...

Buy a good receiver that will at least power the speakers and grab an amp for the main fronts while you're at it (again get a good amp). Then you can start adding amps for the other chanels as money comes in, and when you're at the point where all your speakers are being power by separate amps, sell the receiver and spend the $ on a preamp/processor...

Keske944

Believe you me... I am no stranger to buying ebay as 99% of my car stero came from ebay... Probbaly saved me a good 2-3k. I know what you mean about the constant improvement to they system. Once you get the bug its hard to squash it if not impossible. When i get back to the states i will visit a few good home audio stores that i know of and will start to pirice things out. Thanks for the help and advice. btw... i helped a bunch of the car audio guys fond this website and maybe it can help some of you... if you want some really good speaker wire and such check out www.kunkonceptz.com good quality stuff and affordable... i use thier wire in my car and it is awesome...

Thanks for the help... hopefully i have just saved you a buck or two in return..

steveinaz

Parasound PHP-850 preamp...$249
Parasound HCA-1000A amp...$425 (125 watt/rms)
Speakers......Pick what you like, however higher efficiency will get you more output (decide on your listening levels)
Cambridge Audio Azur 640C cd player...$500

There's an excellent starter system that can be upgraded in the future. $1175 total (and thats retail), now you've got nearly a thousand bucks for speakers....I could give you a list of speakers far under a grand that are outstanding.

PolkWannabie

Parasound is nice gear but those are two channel ...

He's looking to drive pairs of LSi15's, FX's & 9's along with a LSiC in a HT environment so a different preamp and at least MORE amps would be required.

wire

Originally posted by steveinaz
[Speakers......Pick what you like, gethowever higher efficiency will you more output (decide on your listening levels)


[/B]

What ever you do pick A high current Amp , dont go with Average stuff or underaverage . Man you guys mustbe rich to show him this Sunfire Stuff , thats nice stuff . Go with Carver on a tight budget .

PolkWannabie

Carver was expensive enough in its time and of course now one can only buy Carver gear used ( not a bad thing ) as Carver Pro is a different company and of course Sunfire is the successor to Bob's original company.

cfrizz

Hi guys. Is it possible to get a receiver and add an amp to it? The reason I ask, is that I am thinking of upgrading to Lsi 15's myself and I'm not sure my Denon 3802 can handle them. Can they? There is no way I'm getting rid of a 2yr old receiver, but I don't want to blow it up either.:o

Thanks for any info given!:)

PolkWannabie

Yes and this is a good route to take for those with receivers. I'm still for the next week or so using one in front of some heavy duty amps to power some power hungry speakers.

The only real requirement in the receiver is that it have preamp outputs to feed the amp(s) with and I suspect yours does.

Without looking up the specs for your receiver you may find that it does a decent job on the LSi's by itself assuming it's capable of driving 4 ohm loads and regardless in any case you won't blow it up. At worst you'll put it into protect mode which would be a good indication that you need more oomph. However, even if your receiver can play the LSi's at high volume without going into protect mode without the help of an amp you won't know what more if anything is to be gained by having an amp do the job. I suspect that in the case of most receivers trying to power the LSi's that there would be better results using an amp but that is of course for you to determine.

cfrizz

Ok so if I'm understanding this correctly, It might be able to handle it if I don't turn it up too loud?

Here are the short version of the specs.

7.1 A/V Receiver with Dolby Digital, Dolby Pro Logic II & DTS ES Discrete 6.1 • Dolby Pro Logic II decoding with Cinema and Music Modes • DTS Extended Surround Discrete 6.1 decoding • DTS Extended Surround Matrix 6.1 decoding • DTS Neo:6 Cinema & Music Surround decoding • Dolby Digital decoding, including Matrix 6.1 decoding • DDSC-Digital featuring Analog Devices SHARC 32 bit floating point DSP processor • 7 Channels equal power amplifier section • 110 watts per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, <.05%THD) • 150 watts per channel (6 ohms, 1 kHz, <.7%THD) • Analog Devices 24 bit, 96 kHz high resolution DACs on all eight channels • Real 24 bit, 96 kHz Digital Interface Receiver • Adjustable High and Low Pass Crossover(80,100,120Hz) • 2 sets component video inputs, compatible with wideband (480p, 720p, 1080i) response for progressive DVD, DTV • 5 sets composite and "S" video inputs • 7.1 external wide bandwidth (100 kHz) input for future multi-channel formats (such as DVD-Audio) • 5 & 7 Channel Stereo • Personal Memory Plus • 4 assignable digital inputs • Optical digital output • 9 analog inputs including built-in AM/FM tuner • Multi-Zone 1 stereo pre-amp level audio outputs, fixed or variable level • Power Amplifier Assign function, lets you assign 2 of the 7 amp channels to drive second zone speakers directly • LCD dot-matrix programmable/learning remote features TV, VCR, DVD codes from other manufacturers; backlighting main function keys • Dimensions: 17.1"w x 6.7"h x 16.4"d

pjdami

If you are looking for some good high current receivers for LSi check out NAD, Rotel, and B&K. I own or have owned different combos of these receivers and / or seperates and the receivers can hang with the seperates in this $1,500 to $2,000 league.

Outlaw 950 / 7100 is another popular combo. Never owned any Outlaw myself, but there are many that do and like the combo with LSi. Allow yourself some money for interconnects if you go the seperates route.

Emlyn

Ok so if I'm understanding this correctly, It might be able to handle it if I don't turn it up too loud?

Any receiver with pre-amp outputs can be a good candidate for use with LSi speakers as long as a separate amplifier is used. A Denon 3802 by itself will work with a pair of LSi15s, but it won't sound good at usable volumes and may give someone who tries it a false impression of the capabilities of the speakers. The LSi speakers are designed for use with amplifiers, whether in a high current receiver or in a separate component, that are stable driving 4 ohm nominal loads. Generally, the amplifier section in most receivers is designed to provide enough current to drive speakers that present an 8 ohm nominal load. As more current demand is placed on a receiver's amplifier section, distortion increases and control decreases. The speakers won't sound the way they were designed to. The main problem with trying to use most receivers with LSi speakers is that 4 ohm speakers draw more current than 8 ohm speakers and most receivers can't keep up with the current demands in a controlled way. Note that the Denon 3802 is rated by the company to provide 110 watts "full range" with 0.05 percent THD (total harmonic distortion), but only rated to provide 160 watts into a 1kHz tone with an increase to 0.7 percent THD. Presenting the 3802 amplifier section with a reasonably loud continuous 40Hz tone or an 80Hz tone to a 4 ohm speaker like the LSi15 would be torture for it. There's nothing wrong with a receiver like this though; it's meeting its design objective which is to provide enough current to move the drivers in 8 ohm speakers. By comparison, the Outlaw 7100 7 channel amplifier mentioned above has specs of 165 watts per channel into 4 ohms, full range, with the same low distortion produced into 8 ohm loads.

My best budget conscious recommendation (only considering purchasing new rather than used) for just adding a pair of LSi15s to a home theater system that otherwise has 8 ohm speakers is the Parasound A23 two channel amp. The amp works wonderfully with the speakers, and sounded considerably better than the Rotel RMB1075 (200 watts to 4 ohms) and B&K 7270 (380 watts to 4 ohms) I've experimented with. I think the damping factor variation has something to do with this because control of the woofer seemed considerably better with the Parasound amp which has a high damping factor. A Rotel RB1080 two channel amp would also be a good choice for a couple hundred dollars more, but it may be overkill for the speakers. I've seen a test that showed the amp has been capable of producing more than 400 watts continuous full range into a 4 ohm load. The LSis don't need high power (watts) necessarily, they need to be hooked up to an amplifier with high current reserves.

Driving a full set of 5 or more LSi speakers would seem to require at least an Outlaw 7100, possibly a larger 5 or 7 channel amp, or possibly a 5 channel amp and a separate 2 channel amp for the main speakers. A Denon 3802 would be a fine choice to use as a preamp. No need at all to get rid of it for home theater+music use.

PolkWannabie

The other benefit of buying used which most people don't talk about much is that if you for example pick up a used amp today and use it for six months to a year and then decide you want something else you can probably sell it for more or less what you paid for it.

Any new piece of gear you buy will be almost instantly be worth less as soon as you open the box.

wire

Originally posted by cfrizz
Hi guys. Is it possible to get a receiver and add an amp to it? The reason I ask, is that I am thinking of upgrading to Lsi 15's myself and I'm not sure my Denon 3802 can handle them. Can they? There is no way I'm getting rid of a 2yr old receiver, but I don't want to blow it up either.:o

Thanks for any info given!:)

Hi cfrizz
Man , Denon ( High current ) is good stuff .
Im pretty sure you can add a Power Amp to that monster (Maybe polkwannabe can confirm that) , There is no way i would give that receiver up .
I remember , i was shopping with my freind (he needed a receiver) , we looked at them all and tested them , there was a liittle intigrated Denon 40wpc vs a Yamaha 110 wpc , using some JBL (same speakers) for both , the Denon Crushed the Yamaha , there was no comparison . Denon makes quality stuff .

PolkWannabie

There's quality and then there's quality ...

You wanna pay five or ten or twenty times as much you get better quality. It's all a matter of how fat your wallet is, where your ears stop hearing improvement and whether or not that last 1% makes a difference to you. Personally I take shots at getting the best my ears can hear within some level of reason, but there is a limit.

Here's some nice little quality mono's ... http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1086343134

And some others ... http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1086680966

Not likely I'll ever have either of these pairs, nor will most folks regardless of how much they like music and/or HT ...

A decent AVR is a good place to start, especially if you are not trying to drive real difficult speakers. After that it's about sources and amps and preamps etc. not necessarily in that order with usually an eye to upgrading the weakest link in the chain as you go along which of course makes it a continual process if you want or allow it to be. This can be a lifetime pursuit and as someone said about something sometime, it's a journey not a destination.

PolkWannabie

As far as whether some receiver has pre-outs on it, most these days do and it should be pretty straight forward to look at the back of the unit or the owners manual and get an answer right away. There's no mystery here.

pjdami

cfrizz,

Your Denon 3802, while a great quality receiver, is only rated for 6 ohm speakers minimum as reported by other Denon owners in past threads that I have read. The 3802 is a great receiver for 8 ohm speakers but for the LSi I'm afraid not. You should do a search and read back a year or so on receivers with LSi posts. There is a ton of information from owners that posted about problems with overheating and shutting down running LSi.

This of course also depends on how loud your listening and playback level will be. I ran a Yamaha RX-V1300 with my LSi 15 for about a week and it did okay at lower listening levels and never shut down but sounded compressed at higher levels and lost dynamic range.

I owned a Rotel RSX 1055 and had no problems with this receiver. I then mated it with a RB 1070 with a higher damping factor on the amp and although it did control the bass a little better with the LSi it was not really worth the cost in my opinion. I sold both, primarily because I would recommend Rotel if you room acoustics is "soft" with carpeting, curtains, soft furniture, etc. With my ceramic tile flooring I found the Rotel to be a little too lively for me.

I bought a B&K AVR 307 new and under $1,900 (since the AVR 507s had a price drop) and haven't looked back since. I have compared the AVR 307 to my B&K seperates PT5 & ST125.2 in two channel and the receiver does admirably well up to the listening levels that I would operate the unit at. So no problem for me. I usually listen at a maximum of -15 db of "reference level".

My original recommendations stands for receivers under $2,000 for LSi:

NAD T752 or T753
NAD T762 or T763
Rotel RSX 1055 or 1065 (newer models out now)
B&K AVR 307 (AVR 507 is approximately $3,000)
Outlaw Seperates 950 / 7100

I know, expensive to get into the LSi line. But it was well worth it for me to get into more neutral sounding components due to my listening environment.

Paul