705's whether to amp?

pawelmwo

Greetings. New to Polk and dove in on a holiday sale and might have bit off more than I can chew. I'm also new to high end audio so please bear with me. I've replaced my old AVR with a HDMI Denon AVR-X4400h. I picked up the 705 towers and 706c center. I'm starting to slowly build my HT.

I'm reading everyone recommending external amplification with these speakers. I've plugged the numbers into the Peak SPL calculator below. If the speakers are rated for 88dB with 20 watt min 250 watt max. The receiver seems to be able to achieve 105 dB at 13 feet with 3 speakers plugged into the calculator. So would it be overkill to run these on an external amp? I've considered adding a Emotiva XPA-3 to help drive the Left, Center and Right channels. I do plan to add a subwoofer and surrounds later. What sound characteristics if any would I be missing not using amplification?

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

SuperStoopid

I recently purchased the exact same combination of speakers and AVR that you have and have discussed this matter briefly in a thread I created so I'll link you to that as it may helpful.

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/184685/lsim-center-channel-and-front-stage-advice-needed#latest

I can't really comment on the sound characteristics, but the difference between 3 speakers @ 125w (x4400h) and 3 speakers @ 275w (XPA3) on that calculator is 3.4dB so you're not gonna blow your windows out.

The main reason I am considering an external amp for my LCR speakers is that it will leave more power available to other speakers connected to the AVR and allow me to take full advantage of the processing power of the x4400h. The Denon x4400h only has a 710w power supply so connecting 7 or 9 speakers will cause the speakers to see FAR less than the 125w Denon claims. Not to mention, if you're using the AVRs bi-amping assignment for the 705s that only leaves you with the capability of 7.1 without an external amp.

So being "overkill" kinda depends really. Do you like the way the speakers sound now? What volume are you currently listening to movies and music at? And finally, do you see yourself wanting to expand past 7.1 in the future?

nooshinjohn

An amp of suitable power and current will really wake up those speakers. Search for 250w or better from Parasound, Sunfire, Pass, or another make and be prepared to be shocked at how good sound can be.

pawelmwo

SuperStoopid wrote: »

I recently purchased the exact same combination of speakers and AVR that you have and have discussed this matter briefly in a thread I created so I'll link you to that as it may helpful.

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/184685/lsim-center-channel-and-front-stage-advice-needed#latest

I can't really comment on the sound characteristics, but the difference between 3 speakers @ 125w (x4400h) and 3 speakers @ 275w (XPA3) on that calculator is 3.4dB so you're not gonna blow your windows out.

The main reason I am considering an external amp for my LCR speakers is that it will leave more power available to other speakers connected to the AVR and allow me to take full advantage of the processing power of the x4400h. The Denon x4400h only has a 710w power supply so connecting 7 or 9 speakers will cause the speakers to see FAR less than the 125w Denon claims. Not to mention, if you're using the AVRs bi-amping assignment for the 705s that only leaves you with the capability of 7.1 without an external amp.

So being "overkill" kinda depends really. Do you like the way the speakers sound now? What volume are you currently listening to movies and music at? And finally, do you see yourself wanting to expand past 7.1 in the future?

The speakers are still in the mail. Doing due diligence research before they arrive. Got in on the $999 deal from Adorama for the holidays. I already have the receiver and it is fantastic. I see what you are saying and before I add surrounds I want to get approval to move forward

nooshinjohn

An AVR will work, BUT it will not be capable of driving the LSiM 705's to achieve their full potential.

nooshinjohn

SuperStoopid wrote: »

I recently purchased the exact same combination of speakers and AVR that you have and have discussed this matter briefly in a thread I created so I'll link you to that as it may helpful.

https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/184685/lsim-center-channel-and-front-stage-advice-needed#latest

I can't really comment on the sound characteristics, but the difference between 3 speakers @ 125w (x4400h) and 3 speakers @ 275w (XPA3) on that calculator is 3.4dB so you're not gonna blow your windows out.

The main reason I am considering an external amp for my LCR speakers is that it will leave more power available to other speakers connected to the AVR and allow me to take full advantage of the processing power of the x4400h. The Denon x4400h only has a 710w power supply so connecting 7 or 9 speakers will cause the speakers to see FAR less than the 125w Denon claims. Not to mention, if you're using the AVRs bi-amping assignment for the 705s that only leaves you with the capability of 7.1 without an external amp.

So being "overkill" kinda depends really. Do you like the way the speakers sound now? What volume are you currently listening to movies and music at? And finally, do you see yourself wanting to expand past 7.1 in the future?

Your moniker seems to be a good fit.


Your Denon does not put out 710w... It's transformer is too small to be able to back up what the manufacturer claims. A separate amp, even if it is of a similar power rating as the AVR into two channels, will sound vastly improved over what your Denon delivers.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9a60c-denon-poa-1500-vu-meters-solid-state

To keep things in the Denon family, the amp above would have your ears believing you just bought new speakers. The performance of the 705's would be on an entirely other level from what you are getting out of the AVR.

The same would apply for this amp...
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis99e3d-parasound-halo-a-23-stereo-power-amplifier-a23-15162-solid-state

Bottom line... It's not about watts, It is about the amplifiers ability to provide the CURRENT your speaker needs instantaneously on demand, and the ability to exert control over the speaker in such a way that the sound you hear is as close to what was recorded as possible. The small power supplies and the smaller power capacitors contained within an AVR will inherently fall short every single time.

F1nut

I'm going to present an opposite point of view. HT isn't anywhere near as demanding as 2 channel music. Therefore, I believe your AVR will drive your soon to be LSi's quite well for the intended use.

nooshinjohn

F1nut wrote: »

I'm going to present an opposite point of view. HT isn't anywhere near as demanding as 2 channel music. Therefore, I believe your AVR will drive your soon to be LSi's quite well for the intended use.

In my setup, I have found the opposite to be true. Movie soundtracks, especially those with lots of music or orchestral scores tend to perform better with a separate amp. True that most of the film's dialog comes from the center channel, but your two main speakers up front could use the extra power as well. In films with heavy special effects as well as strong scores, your center and surrounds will be competing for what little you receiver can deliver. By freeing your AVR of the burden of providing power to a set of hungry towers, you will improve it's ability to take care of the rest.

cfrizz

It isn't about volume, it's about the speakers having the power they need to be crystal clear with music, dialog, and instruments. The three front speakers are utilized the most and should have all the power they need to operate to their full potential whether playing music or movies.

That is what a powerful amp brings to the table, since all it has to do is power the speakers.

So take your time and when funds allow get at least a three channel amp of at least 200wpc.

F1nut

I guess my Pioneer Elite AVR is better than most. In fact, I know it is.

Anyway, the LSiM speakers the OP will have are not a demanding load, so I suggest he try them with his AVR first before spending money he may not need to.

nooshinjohn

Based on what I see on the specs page, you will need to beef up the mains...


https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx4400H

105wpc @8 ohms, two channels driven, As Jesse has stated, you may not need it, but with a power rating like that, I would not try to pretend I am in a movie theater any time soon. You will do more damage to an underpowered speaker that an over-powered one.

Get an amp.

ken brydson

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Based on what I see on the specs page, you will need to beef up the mains...


https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx4400H

105wpc @8 ohms, two channels driven, As Jesse has stated, you may not need it, but with a power rating like that, I would not try to pretend I am in a movie theater any time soon. You will do more damage to an underpowered speaker that an over-powered one.

Get an amp.

Crossed over with a capable sub and he'll be fine until the upgrade itch hits. JMHO...

nooshinjohn

… but don't push it too hard.

pawelmwo

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Based on what I see on the specs page, you will need to beef up the mains...


https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx4400H

105wpc @8 ohms, two channels driven, As Jesse has stated, you may not need it, but with a power rating like that, I would not try to pretend I am in a movie theater any time soon. You will do more damage to an underpowered speaker that an over-powered one.

Get an amp.

It lists both 125 and 105, which is the one to look at?

Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive)105 W
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive)125 W

nooshinjohn

I would take the lower of the two ratings. Receivers are notorious for being over-rated.

SuperStoopid

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Your moniker seems to be a good fit.


Your Denon does not put out 710w... It's transformer is too small to be able to back up what the manufacturer claims. A separate amp, even if it is of a similar power rating as the AVR into two channels, will sound vastly improved over what your Denon delivers.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9a60c-denon-poa-1500-vu-meters-solid-state

To keep things in the Denon family, the amp above would have your ears believing you just bought new speakers. The performance of the 705's would be on an entirely other level from what you are getting out of the AVR.

The same would apply for this amp...
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis99e3d-parasound-halo-a-23-stereo-power-amplifier-a23-15162-solid-state

Bottom line... It's not about watts, It is about the amplifiers ability to provide the CURRENT your speaker needs instantaneously on demand, and the ability to exert control over the speaker in such a way that the sound you hear is as close to what was recorded as possible. The small power supplies and the smaller power capacitors contained within an AVR will inherently fall short every single time.

I'm well aware of how manufacturers have a tendency to claim more than what their products are capable of. My point was that EVEN IF the x4400h had that much wattage, it still may not be what his setup needs. I only mentioned wattage rather than providing more detail because it's the most relatable to people who are new and as it is the most marketed specification and the OP stated their lack of experience.

pawelmwo

cfrizz wrote: »

It isn't about volume, it's about the speakers having the power they need to be crystal clear with music, dialog, and instruments. The three front speakers are utilized the most and should have all the power they need to operate to their full potential whether playing music or movies.

That is what a powerful amp brings to the table, since all it has to do is power the speakers.

So take your time and when funds allow get at least a three channel amp of at least 200wpc.

When the time is right what is a sensible affordable solution to strive for? The two I had in mind Outlaw 2200 monoblocks for LCR or Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 3.

nooshinjohn

You only need to amp the mains and let the receiver handle the rest. Rotel, Parasound, Sunfire, are all names that come to mind. Don’t be afraid to consider a gently pre-owned amp, as you can get far more for your money that way.

The only gear I have that was purchased new is my Oppo UDP-205. The rest I either built myself or bought used.

mdaudioguy

F1nut wrote: »

I guess my Pioneer Elite AVR is better than most. In fact, I know it is.

Anyway, the LSiM speakers the OP will have are not a demanding load, so I suggest he try them with his AVR first before spending money he may not need to.

The Denon X4400 is a pretty capable receiver, especially if you're only running 3-5 channels. With the current 3-speaker load, I'd also start without an amp. It'll do 7-9 all right, too, if all the surrounds are fairly easy to drive. Don't expect to drive additional tower speakers for surrounds (which is never something I suggest anyhow, for HT).

Look at it this way - without an amp, you'll get standard performance, which will suit most people. Adding an amp will boost performance, but not everyone will notice or appreciate it.

cfrizz

pawelmwo wrote: »

cfrizz wrote: »

It isn't about volume, it's about the speakers having the power they need to be crystal clear with music, dialog, and instruments. The three front speakers are utilized the most and should have all the power they need to operate to their full potential whether playing music or movies.

That is what a powerful amp brings to the table, since all it has to do is power the speakers.

So take your time and when funds allow get at least a three channel amp of at least 200wpc.

When the time is right what is a sensible affordable solution to strive for? The two I had in mind Outlaw 2200 monoblocks for LCR or Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 3.

Both companies make good products, for practicality and space I would get the XPA, that way you only need 1 outlet rather than 3.

mrloren

Hmm, I'll chime in my two cents

I own a X4400H, I also own an XPA3-G3. Both are nice pieces of gear.

When I first got my X4400H I was listening to some music with the house to myself. I started to think of how it would sound without the amp (BasX-A300 at the time 150wX2). I plugged the speakers directly into the AVR ran Audyssey put the same CD on and ...... gross was my first thought. I ran audyssey again went through settings and still gross. It didn't sound bad but it was lacking openness and clarity. I even did 2ch with no sub in full range same thing. I hooked the amp back in ran Audyssey and yes back to good sound. It wasn't bad to the point of not wanting to listen. More like sounds good but... Everything sounds so much nicer with an amp even at lower volume. An amp will make a good recording sound great, a bad recording will sound worse.

Adding an amp depends on the budget for which amp to get. I have an Emotiva. nice amp with great clear warm sound.

pawelmwo

mrloren wrote: »

Hmm, I'll chime in my two cents

I own a X4400H, I also own an XPA3-G3. Both are nice pieces of gear.

When I first got my X4400H I was listening to some music with the house to myself. I started to think of how it would sound without the amp (BasX-A300 at the time 150wX2). I plugged the speakers directly into the AVR ran Audyssey put the same CD on and ...... gross was my first thought. I ran audyssey again went through settings and still gross. It didn't sound bad but it was lacking openness and clarity. I even did 2ch with no sub in full range same thing. I hooked the amp back in ran Audyssey and yes back to good sound. It wasn't bad to the point of not wanting to listen. More like sounds good but... Everything sounds so much nicer with an amp even at lower volume. An amp will make a good recording sound great, a bad recording will sound worse.

Adding an amp depends on the budget for which amp to get. I have an Emotiva. nice amp with great clear warm sound.

Have you attempted to turn off Audyssey? I’ve ran it with mixed results it made my existing satellites sound overly bright along with differing crossover frequencies. I’ve turned the eq off but left the speaker distances in, set the crossover manually and pulled out a sound meter and tweaked the channels to 75db at 0 and it sounds fine again. I’ve read that I’m not the only one with such results for what it’s worth. I am new to this receiver but this has been my experience thus far.

F1nut

Pawelmwo, do you plan on using this rig for HT only or is a dual purpose rig to include 2 channel music?

IMO, Audyssey and Yamaha's YPAO leave a lot to be desired compared to Pioneer's MCACC. Still all of them should only be used to set a base line with final tuning with an SPL meter and your ears.

pawelmwo

F1nut wrote: »

Pawelmwo, do you plan on using this rig for HT only or is a dual purpose rig to include 2 channel music?

IMO, Audyssey and Yamaha's YPAO leave a lot to be desired compared to Pioneer's MCACC. Still all of them should only be used to set a base line with final tuning with an SPL meter and your ears.

Yes hopefully dual purpose, including adding a turntable. I envision using a three channel amp for LCR in the future once I add more channels for surrounds. Likely budget around $1000 or less.

mrloren

Music I go direct no Audyssey there. Movies it's on.

F1nut

pawelmwo wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

Pawelmwo, do you plan on using this rig for HT only or is a dual purpose rig to include 2 channel music?

IMO, Audyssey and Yamaha's YPAO leave a lot to be desired compared to Pioneer's MCACC. Still all of them should only be used to set a base line with final tuning with an SPL meter and your ears.

Yes hopefully dual purpose, including adding a turntable. I envision using a three channel amp for LCR in the future once I add more channels for surrounds. Likely budget around $1000 or less.

Good luck.

sponger

Someone in another LSiM thread posted a review with measurements which showed that the LSiM's resistance is on average 5 ohms. It dipped down to 2 ohms or something at 66hz. So, a budget amp like an Outlaw 5000 with its rated 180wpc at 4 ohms would probably run somewhere close to that level when driving those towers. Capacitance is like 3X the x4400h. It also has a toroidal transformer and discrete channels unlike that avr. If you can't spend the cash on a 200+wpc amp like the XPA series, then those towers will still perform more dynamically if not more safely (ie no blown tweeters, etc.) with a $650 five channel like the Outlaw when compared to the avr. But I think if you're in a small room and you don't habitually turn it up deafeningly loud the x4400h could also be all you need.

pawelmwo

Would something like an older EMOTIVA XPA-5 GEN 2 fit the bill? It's 5 channel but considerably cheaper second hand.

- 200 watts per channel; all channels driven; into 8 Ohms

cfrizz

Absolutely!!! Grab it while you can!!!

joecoulson

Just to echo some sentiments here, when I added external amps to my set up, the AVR was able to push the center and surrounds much better
So not only did I get much more power to my mains, but the whole experience for home theater was increased.
I ran Audyssey and did not like the way it sounded. So I took the measurements and wrote down the distances and plugged those in manually to the receiver while keeping all other equalizer settings default.

pawelmwo

joecoulson wrote: »

Just to echo some sentiments here, when I added external amps to my set up, the AVR was able to push the center and surrounds much better
So not only did I get much more power to my mains, but the whole experience for home theater was increased.
I ran Audyssey and did not like the way it sounded. So I took the measurements and wrote down the distances and plugged those in manually to the receiver while keeping all other equalizer settings default.

For what it’s worth I had an amazing opportunity and picked up a pair of used Outlaw 2200’s monoblock amps. It does 200 watt RMS. I only connected the 706c center and immediately noticed a change to the range coming out of the 705s when using all 3 channels. I had a feeling like playing stereo provided a more impactful listening experience which had more headroom. Now after adding amplification to just the center I’m experiencing the same type of details from movies. It would appear that the receiver does fine driving two speakers but goes downhill after adding the center. I haven’t even run Audyssey yet. I am a believer now.