Bi Amping
speedtoys
Posts: 6
First post, been have been in and out of here for years.
I have a pair of SDA2Bs that I have had since new, and listen to them everyday still. I have replaced only the tweeters.
Years ago, I got a set of 2.3TLs for free..they worked ok. Each side had 1 dead driver, and I've been staring at them for years not used.
Just ordered a set of V3 crossover upgrades, hurricane nuts...the whole fun bag.
Ill test the drivers here soon to see which one(s) dont work, and get to that next.
But, I have the ability to bi-amp them.
If I do, do I need to cross over at the Amp either channel, or is it all still taken care of in the speaker crossovers?
I have a pair of SDA2Bs that I have had since new, and listen to them everyday still. I have replaced only the tweeters.
Years ago, I got a set of 2.3TLs for free..they worked ok. Each side had 1 dead driver, and I've been staring at them for years not used.
Just ordered a set of V3 crossover upgrades, hurricane nuts...the whole fun bag.
Ill test the drivers here soon to see which one(s) dont work, and get to that next.
But, I have the ability to bi-amp them.
If I do, do I need to cross over at the Amp either channel, or is it all still taken care of in the speaker crossovers?
Comments
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I believe it is taken care of at the crossover level. Could be wrong, I am sure someone else will chime in as well.Just a dude doing dude-ly things
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So, you have active crossovers and separate power amplifiers?Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
So, you have active crossovers and separate power amplifiers?
Separate outputs on a Sony 5000ES, the rear channel can be repurposed to be a front bi-amplified channel.
I dont have any surround channels.. -
Separate outputs on a Sony 5000ES, the rear channel can be repurposed to be a front bi-amplified channel.
I hate to break it to you, but that's not actually bi-amping, as it's still all coming from one amp.
Just break down the meaning of the word "bi-amp": two amps. It means two separate physical amplifiers, two separate power supplies, two separate power cords, etc. -
How did I know you had an AVR.....LOL
As Clipdat correctly points out, you cannot bi-amp using an AVR. It's marketing hype. In addition, no AVR will ever drive the 2.3TL's properly. They require a high quality integrated amp or separates to obtain the performance they are capable of.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
A "stereo" amplifier has two amplifiers in one housing.Separate outputs on a Sony 5000ES, the rear channel can be repurposed to be a front bi-amplified channel.
I hate to break it to you, but that's not actually bi-amping, as it's still all coming from one amp.
Just break down the meaning of the word "bi-amp": two amps. It means two separate physical amplifiers, two separate power supplies, two separate power cords, etc.
A multi-channel AVR has a bundle of amplifiers in one housing. The problem is that they're typically crappy amplifiers, not that there's a heap of them in the housing. There's no engineering reason that someone couldn't build a decent AVR, the only thing stopping them is money. The AVR segment exists because folks won't pay enough to get quality product.
It is ENTIRELY possible to bi-amp a pair of speakers using a multi-channel amplifier having only one power cord. Examples: ATI AT1804, Aragon 8008X5 (one channel un-used.)
http://www.ati-amp.com/AT1800.php
As said, with SDA speakers, you'll be using the Polk crossover unless you plan to disable the SDA circuitry.
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Hey @speedtoys (love the name) first and foremost welcome! Glad you decided to jump into the fray! Lots of good advice here, hang around, and get the learning on!
Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD. -
A "stereo" amplifier has two amplifiers in one housing.Separate outputs on a Sony 5000ES, the rear channel can be repurposed to be a front bi-amplified channel.
I hate to break it to you, but that's not actually bi-amping, as it's still all coming from one amp.
Just break down the meaning of the word "bi-amp": two amps. It means two separate physical amplifiers, two separate power supplies, two separate power cords, etc.
Yep and it takes two of those amplifiers to bi-amp.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
There is much to be said for biamplification (or even triamplification), particularly --
I'd opine -- with active crossovers. The best thing to do is almost certainly going to be use the right amplifiers for their intended jobs. Plenty of grunt for LF reproduction; outstanding linearity and sonics for midrange/treble.
So, yeah, no matter whether one is going to biamp vertically or horizontally, at a minimum, at least a couple of capable amplifiers are going to be required for best results.
Otherwise, it's just playin' around.
Nothin' wrong with playin' around -- I do it all the time -- but we reap what we sow in this furshlugginer hobby.
Playin' around -- a ca. 20 wpc Class AB solid state stereo receiver (hk 330i) used to biamplify a (monaural) Frankenspeaker system consisting of the bass unit of an AR-2ax and an Altec 802D compression driver on an Altec 511B horn (with a passive first order crossover). The "balance" control was used to normalize the wildly disparate sensitivities of the woofer and the treble section
notzacklyVOT by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
Also note the careful time alignment of the two components of the loudspeaker system."Kids, don't try this at home!! -
Thanks for the input all...
Im no stranger to throwing money into a dark hole.
https://www.flickr.com/gp/28804666@N08/N6FsY0
Separately, I have a Hsu Research standing tube Sub..bout 3' tall, I dont recall the model, being drivin by a Velodyn DC-600.
Incoming Dumb Question (tm)
Do 2 amplified outputs, even from the same AVR, supply any measure of "more" to each speaker?
<End DQ Transmission>
Even if I dont do it..Ill know more about why/why not. -
Not really, what that amounts to, especially with AVR's, is robbing Peter to pay paul….so to speak.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Incoming Dumb Question (tm)
Do 2 amplified outputs, even from the same AVR, supply any measure of "more" to each speaker?
<End DQ Transmission>
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3dB if they are in sync, but that's as good as it gets. -
Yep........ A lot of people think if you are listening to one speaker then add another speaker playing at the same volume it will be twice as loud. It won't. It will only be 3 dBs louder. You would need ten more speakers and amps playing at that level to make it twice as loud (10dBs). Of course its simpler to just turn your one amp up so it puts out 10 times the power.
I have not Bi-amped anything so can not tell you first hand what improvements it makes. But it is not loudness. 3dBs is the slightest / barely detectable (at best) change when listening to music. -
Many people believe, on this site at least, your money will be better spent by getting some quality speaker cables and jumpers.
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You're correct for stereo amplifiers powering a pair of speakers, but it's also not helpful for the OPs situation. The OP has a multi-channel amp, and clipdat told him that using a multichannel amp is "not actually bi-amping" when it is, it's just being done with low-quality amplifiers stuffed into a single box with a single power cord leading to a compromised power supply. The fact that the receiver isn't optimum for the purpose does not mean that he isn't bi-amping, it just means he's using less-than-optimum equipment to do it.
A "stereo" amplifier has two amplifiers in one housing.Separate outputs on a Sony 5000ES, the rear channel can be repurposed to be a front bi-amplified channel.
I hate to break it to you, but that's not actually bi-amping, as it's still all coming from one amp.
Just break down the meaning of the word "bi-amp": two amps. It means two separate physical amplifiers, two separate power supplies, two separate power cords, etc.
Yep and it takes two of those amplifiers to bi-amp.
Depends.Do 2 amplified outputs, even from the same AVR, supply any measure of "more" to each speaker?
Using two amplifier channels per speaker cabinet will NOT increase the voltage delivered to the speaker drivers. Depending on how the receiver is set up internally, you MIGHT be able to deliver more amperage. If the transformer or the filter caps are the weak point, you don't get extra amperage because the power supply could be tapped-out from running two channels hard. If the output devices or heat-sinking are the weak points, you could get additional amperage since you'd be using twice as much (four channels).
Listen and see...but I bet you're going through a bunch of extra complexity for no real gain.
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If you use separate amplifiers / channels to power the high and low frequency of a speaker you are bi-amping. Even if the channels are all in the same box. No one ever said stereo amps don't work because they share the same power supply.
Now if you ask would a setup using an AVR sound as good as buying a quality amp (even wiring the speakers conventionally) the answer is NO.
But, If you are already biwiring is easy enough to find out if there is an improvement in Biamping. Just swap two cables to a separate channel and listen.
I am more interested on how the OP modified his SDA's to allow for Biwiring/Biamping.
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You're correct for stereo amplifiers powering a pair of speakers, but it's also not helpful for the OPs situation. The OP has a multi-channel amp, and clipdat told him that using a multichannel amp is "not actually bi-amping" when it is, it's just being done with low-quality amplifiers stuffed into a single box with a single power cord leading to a compromised power supply. The fact that the receiver isn't optimum for the purpose does not mean that he isn't bi-amping, it just means he's using less-than-optimum equipment to do it.
A "stereo" amplifier has two amplifiers in one housing.Separate outputs on a Sony 5000ES, the rear channel can be repurposed to be a front bi-amplified channel.
I hate to break it to you, but that's not actually bi-amping, as it's still all coming from one amp.
Just break down the meaning of the word "bi-amp": two amps. It means two separate physical amplifiers, two separate power supplies, two separate power cords, etc.
Yep and it takes two of those amplifiers to bi-amp.
Depends.Do 2 amplified outputs, even from the same AVR, supply any measure of "more" to each speaker?
Using two amplifier channels per speaker cabinet will NOT increase the voltage delivered to the speaker drivers. Depending on how the receiver is set up internally, you MIGHT be able to deliver more amperage. If the transformer or the filter caps are the weak point, you don't get extra amperage because the power supply could be tapped-out from running two channels hard. If the output devices or heat-sinking are the weak points, you could get additional amperage since you'd be using twice as much (four channels).
Listen and see...but I bet you're going through a bunch of extra complexity for no real gain.
One cannot bi-amp using an AVR with its single power supply, but even more importantly it's not bi-amping when using the passive crossovers in the speakers.
http://sound.whsites.net/bi-amp.htm#common-question
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I bi amp my 2.3 TLs using a sunfire signature cinema grand 400 x 5. It has the ability to place an RCA jumper between the main L/R channels and channels 4 and 5 allowing an easy second channel of amplification per speaker. I use the voltage source output to drive the lower frequency and the current source outputs to drive the upper frequencies since it provides more of a tube amp sound.
This may still be technically bi-wiring since there is only once power supply in the amp but it has substantially more headroom than an avr.____________________________________________________________
polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS, SVS PB13 Ultra X 2, Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Bob Carver Crimson Beauty 350 Tube Mono Blocks, Carver Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400x5, ADCOM GFA 7807, Panasonic UB420, Moon 380D DAC, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050 -
I bi amp my 2.3 TLs using a sunfire signature cinema grand 400 x 5. It has the ability to place an RCA jumper between the main L/R channels and channels 4 and 5 allowing an easy second channel of amplification per speaker. I use the voltage source output to drive the lower frequency and the current source outputs to drive the upper frequencies since it provides more of a tube amp sound.
This may still be technically bi-wiring since there is only once power supply in the amp but it has substantially more headroom than an avr.
And that is excatly what Bob designed it to do -
Nope, that's bi-amping.This may still be technically bi-wiring since there is only once power supply in the amp
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Wrong. Two amplifier channels per speaker cabinet (four amplifier channels per stereo pair of speakers)involves two amplifiers (bi-amps) per cabinet. It does not matter that they share a power supply. In the end, even four monoblock amplifiers would share power, even if that happens at the circuit breaker box in the home.One cannot bi-amp using an AVR with its single power supply,
"Bi-amping" is not the same as "bi-DC-power-supplying". We're counting the number of amplifiers, not the number of DC power supplies.
From your own link:but even more importantly it's not bi-amping when using the passive crossovers in the speakers.
http://sound.whsites.net/bi-amp.htm#common-question
I agree that "passive" bi-amping using the existing speaker crossover network as would be done with the OPs situation is probably a waste of time. I said as much in my previous post.Passive biamping (where two amplifiers are used in a bi-wiring connection) is, IMO, a waste of money.
It's still bi-amping, even if it's not a sonic improvement. -
With true bi-amping one power amplifier drives the high frequencies and a second completely separate power amplifier drives the low frequencies. Therefore, there are two completely separate power supplies, which most assuredly does matter.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I entirely agree. However, separate amplifier channels does not equate to separate power supplies.With true bi-amping one power amplifier drives the high frequencies and a second completely separate power amplifier drives the low frequencies.
It matters SONICALLY if the one, shared power supply isn't appropriately engineered. It's entirely possible that you'd get BETTER RESULTS with two separate amplifier chassis. But we're not talking about optimal results, or the "fidelity" obtainable with an AVR in any configuration. We're talking about the number of amplifiers (amplifier channels) are being used on each speaker cabinet. If you're using two amplifier channels per cabinet...it's bi-amped. The sonics may be horrible--or fabulous--depending on the quality of the equipment used.Therefore, there are two completely separate power supplies, which most assuredly does matter.
For that matter, how would you define a stereo amplifier that had a dual-wound transformer? Separate filter caps, separate secondary windings, SHARED IRON, AND SHARED PRIMARY WINDING including the single power cord. Far as I know, there's no legal definition of "Dual Mono"; industry standards would seem to allow a stereo amp with a dual-wound transformer but separate filter caps per channel to be labeled "Dual Mono" implying "separate" power supplies.
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I think everyone is getting way too caught up that the OP is even thinking about using an AVR for two channel (Gasp and OMG!!!!). Not everyone can spend thousands on a dedicated system and you use what you have in the real world. And a big plus to them that they are thinking about experimenting some on a quest to improve the sound.
Think of your first system and the comments you would get if you were a new poster and posted about it. Gasp and OMG!!!! again.
I can see where this discussion can have some merit. Self proclaimed "Audiophiles" or not I bet just about all of the regulars here also own a AV setup........With a dreaded AVR!. So can we improve the sound?
This is the same question as the OP's, just worded differently. I also think everyone else with an AVR can relate..........I have a biwired center channel speaker. Right now it is hooked up to the AVR center channel with a single wire (and even the crappy brass jumper). I also have 2 extra channels that are not being used. Can I improve the sound by plugging half of the speaker into an unused channel?
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Can I improve the sound by plugging half of the speaker into an unused channel?
No as you are robbing Peter to pay Paul. The more channels you use in an AVR the less wpc it will be able to provide. Why is that? It's because of the single power supply.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Can I improve the sound by plugging half of the speaker into an unused channel?
No as you are robbing Peter to pay Paul. The more channels you use in an AVR the less wpc it will be able to provide. Why is that? It's because of the single power supply.
What are your thoughts of biwiring a speaker. Does it improve the sound? And since everyone has been splitting hairs lately I mean 2 separate wires from the same channel on an amp to the high and low of a speaker with passive crossovers.
How about swapping the brass jumper on those passive crossover speakers with the $14,000 jumper that company was selling?
A number of posters here think these changes improve if not "transform" your system to a new level..........But it is impossible to hear any difference when hooking up the same speaker to 2 different channels of an AVR? -
something like this would be a better choice than two separate wires:
https://www.thecableco.com/theater-4-speaker-cable-pair.html
Jumpers don’t have to be expensive:
https://www.thecableco.com/clear-oval-jumper.html
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No AVRs here -- well, actually, there are a couple, but not hooked up.
Not much TV is watched here.
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Can I improve the sound by plugging half of the speaker into an unused channel?
No as you are robbing Peter to pay Paul. The more channels you use in an AVR the less wpc it will be able to provide. Why is that? It's because of the single power supply.
What are your thoughts of biwiring a speaker. Does it improve the sound? And since everyone has been splitting hairs lately I mean 2 separate wires from the same channel on an amp to the high and low of a speaker with passive crossovers.
How about swapping the brass jumper on those passive crossover speakers with the $14,000 jumper that company was selling?
A number of posters here think these changes improve if not "transform" your system to a new level..........But it is impossible to hear any difference when hooking up the same speaker to 2 different channels of an AVR?
I never said you wouldn't hear a difference, I said it wasn't bi-amping. That said, I see no advantage to sucking more power from an already over taxed power supply.
Changing the basic stock jumpers to high quality cable jumpers is a proven improvement, so is proper bi-amping.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
If you have the means, that is wire etc, TRY IT! For better or worse you may hear a difference. If nothing else you’ll increase wire size, something a more reactive loads tend to favor.
This comes from a big bi-amp/tri-amp fan - see my sig.Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro Samsung BDP, Amazon Firestick, Phillips CD Changer Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; Ctr Ch outside BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside* & out 8 ga Powerline: LR woofers, inside* & out *soldered LR: Tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; Tweets & “Plugged*” Mids - 981, connected w/MP Premiere ICs Ctr Ch: Rotel RB981 -> Bi-amped CSi A6 Surrounds: Premiere ICs ->Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3. 5 Subs: Sunfire True SW Signature -> LFE & Ctr Ch; 4 Audio Pro Evidence @ the “Corners”. Power Conditioning & Distribution: 4 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 5 Furman Miniport 20s *Xschop's handy work
