Non-Jesse approved Bi-amping

So yes, as I mentioned in another thread, I just picked up my second pair of Linn monoblocks. Beautiful little power houses these are and I had asked my dealer to try and get two more for me. He came through. These are built like tanks
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So I have been reading a ton on this and have come to the conclusion (because of the deal I got on these and I already had a pair to begin with) that Bi-amping is something I am subscribing to. Please understand that I recognize that folks who get their receiver and use the built in feature for bi-amping are really not getting anything at all mainly because it’s being fed from the same power supply. I also recognize that if someone uses bi-amping to double output, that’s not the way to do it either. For me it was all about a reduction in intermodulation distortion. And having separate power supply’s for the two sections of my lsim705’s has done (as I listen) exactly as I had hoped.
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Listening to Hotel California in 24/192 wav the snare has such an impact and decay that was not missing before but no where as pronounced as it is now. As I dive back into Dskips list, the Little Drummer boy shows much more definition in the highest notes and decays beautifully.
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I am still going through my tracks as I normally do after a change and assessing the differences. Will post more as I learn more.
In the mean time...flame on!...
Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61

Comments

  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 7,138
    I'm glad that you are liking the audible changes.

    Excuse my ignorance, but is the crossover via the Marantz acting as the preamp?
    "Electronic music is human sound adapting to indulge technology, and for some, it feels like the signature sound of energy. New and abstract sounds over hypnotic rhythms can conjure vast soundscapes for escape, pleasure, and transcendence."
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,456
    No. For now it’s flat signal to all 4 lines and passive crossover in the polks.
    But the Marantz is the preamp. Just can’t seem to want to let go of 5.1.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 7,138
    Ah! I understand now. Thanks!
    "Electronic music is human sound adapting to indulge technology, and for some, it feels like the signature sound of energy. New and abstract sounds over hypnotic rhythms can conjure vast soundscapes for escape, pleasure, and transcendence."
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,440
    edited November 2018
    Congrats....stick a tubed Pre between those amps and the Marantz.
    Post edited by KennethSwauger on
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1430
    Tad 803 speakers
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,456
    I’m sorry. But these things are made beautifully
    5hrjlhuzaqpz.jpeg
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,456
    tonyb wrote: »
    Congrats....stick a tubed Pre between those amps and the Marantz and you won't find your left nut for 3 weeks.

    I have thought about that. I had my eye on a primaluna at my dealer he has as a demo.

    Still considering dropping the Marantz (going 2.1 vs 5.1) and if I do it will be the Parasound p6 in its place.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,440
    Go tubed Joe, you won't regret it..
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1430
    Tad 803 speakers
  • verbverb Posts: 7,648
    tonyb wrote: »
    Congrats....stick a tubed Pre between those amps and the Marantz and you won't find your left nut for 3 weeks.

    I’m still searching for mine after I got the VTL pre! :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS, Cary SLP-05 Pre, Enlightened Audio Designs CD Transport, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Digital Cable, Marantz SA-14 SACD, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, Wireworld Oasis 8 RCA IC's, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, PASS ACA Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: , Antique Sound Labs Wave AV-8 Monoblocks, Tisbury Mini Passive Pre, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 7,138
    edited November 2018
    "Electronic music is human sound adapting to indulge technology, and for some, it feels like the signature sound of energy. New and abstract sounds over hypnotic rhythms can conjure vast soundscapes for escape, pleasure, and transcendence."
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 31,440
    verb wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    Congrats....stick a tubed Pre between those amps and the Marantz and you won't find your left nut for 3 weeks.

    I’m still searching for mine after I got the VTL pre! :smile:

    Lol, look in the floor vents man.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1430
    Tad 803 speakers
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,692
    edited November 2018
    Hmmm....I don't recall you asking for my approval, but rock on with your bad self.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,456
    Lol. Thank You señor
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • sucks2bemesucks2beme Posts: 4,889
    OK, Linn.
    If you're running Linn amps and want to biamp, go all Linn and use AKtiv cards.
    Just me being obvious. Each to their own.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
  • Tony MTony M Posts: 8,305
    edited November 2018
    Clipdat wrote: »

    :o 13K in 2004... :o

    Maybe I can find one in a pawn shop or yard sale now for pennies on the dollar.

    Nice tube pre-amp for sure! B)
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,456
    edited November 2018
    sucks2beme wrote: »
    OK, Linn.
    If you're running Linn amps and want to biamp, go all Linn and use AKtiv cards.
    Just me being obvious. Each to their own.

    Sure getting there. Takes time and coin. Happy with what I have for now, but going that direction.
    Flame on...
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 22,993
    Tony M wrote: »
    Clipdat wrote: »

    :o 13K in 2004... :o

    Maybe I can find one in a pawn shop or yard sale now for pennies on the dollar.

    Nice tube pre-amp for sure! B)

    prolly.
  • soundfreak1soundfreak1 Posts: 2,829
    What "external " xover are you using?" One " of the first threads on biamping where the OP actually got that "TIM" is the major improvment in biamping. Done correctly, it is amazing what it does for the detail and impact in each note! My three best friend have been biamped for years ( one over 30 years) . They harassed me till I set it up and then they sat back and laughed as my jaw hit the floor. It been several years for me now and I will never go back to single amp.
    Main Rig:
    Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
    Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
    Nakamichi EC100 Active xover
    MIT exp 1 ic's
    Perreaux SA33 class A preamp
    AQ kingcobra ic's
    OPPO 83 CDP
    Lehmann audio black cube SE phono pre, Audioquest phono wire (ITA1/1)
    Denon DP-1200 TT. AToc9ML MC cart.
    Monster HTS 3600 power conditioner
    ADS L1590/2 Biamped
    MIT exps2 speaker cable
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,456
    Deqx express is on my short list of possible next purchases. It takes care of pre and crossover in one unit. For now, securing these fantastic monoblock amps was my main focus. They are so underrated.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,456
    So I have had some time with the new setup and just had some lunch without the family home so I got to crank up to reference levels. Played one of my fav test tracks (Draw your swords - Angus Stone).
    Major improvement with regard to definition on the transients. At the 5:00 mark and on the song takes on a new energy and Angus gets loud on the chorus. The cymbal crashes between his voice decay beautifully while the piano and guitar maintain their line.
    Again, was not expecting more power from this, but got exactly what I wanted which was just fluidity with transients and intermodulation distortion. Very very happy.
    Basically (yes I know they are older) got $5k of amps for $1600
    Thanks for reading.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,456
    So, just so everyone knows, Jesse finally came round and approved this setup. We are good now.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,456
    ok - @F1nut I was dreading posting this as I am sure I will get the "I told you so" but I feel I have to:

    On Saturday, we had a very small audio gathering at my house. I had been bi-amping with my 4-Linn monoblocks as noted here on this thread. When @treitz3 and @jdjohn first arrived, the sound that they heard was good and they tried tracks that they were familiar with. They liked the strengths of the Elacs and synergy I had.

    It wasn't until we put the S300 into the mix that something came to light. The lower end now had much more imaging. This was not an issue before with the mids/highs and honestly was hard to even realize until the S300 was hooked up with a single wire and jumpers hooked back up. It baffled us for a while. Then we starting talking about the Ohm rating on the Elacs and it dawned on someone, what if the nominal ohm rating of the two binding posts together, did not mean they were equal when separated. Meaning that maybe the mid/high was running at 4 ohms and the lower bass was at 8 ohms (since this is a nominal 6 ohm speaker). This prompted us to hook up a pair of the Linn's (ILO 2 per side, one per side) as it had been hooked up on the S300. Wow! there it was, lower imaging back! This made the difference between the two amps much harder to pinpoint.

    I had this same amp setup (bi-amping) on the LSIM705's with no issues, and when I got the Elacs, I put them in the mix exactly the same. I had tried a test early on with doing one monoblock per side, but I did not have the towers anywhere near their ideal placement as I do now, therefore the missing lower imaging was not as evident. So I proceeded to put the second pair of amps back in the mix. Non the wiser as to my fatal flaw.

    It seems like the lower woofers had a higher numerical value of ohms than the mid/high driver. This obviously would translate to higher output on the mid/high than on the woofers hence the output difference= illusion of no imaging on the low end. Adding back in the jumper brought the average values back together to run as intended. I am not sure of this is the case with many brands of speakers, or if this difference in values on the two sets of binding posts is a flaw of Elac. Regardless, if you ran bi-wiring from a single amp, you would not be able to tell as you would still be pulling the average (nominal) ohm rating.

    So now that we had a level playing field, swapping the amps back and forth was something I kinda ran with. I think Tom was on the Phone and Jody was cleaning some vinyl, but my conclusions were:
    Linns- had strength with strings and more personal music, like singer/songwriter tracks, albeit with a sacrifice of soundstage width (which honestly usually isnt part of that type of music). The lows seemed a little drier to me, although some would say punchier. The power was there until I got to about 90db - they starting to show that they were running out of steam.
    S300- The overall musicality of these amps is evident in all types of music. They are accurate, fast, and throw out amazing imaging and soundstage. For the type of music I listen to, they are perfect, but again the S300 seemed to run out of gas at the top end (to me) and I do not like having just enough power.

    Hence the purchase I just made for the M700 monoblocks from PS Audio!


    lesson learned - I need much more effort put into Bi-amping to make it work (at least in my scenario)
    I imagine other folks who think they are Bi-amping with a receiver which as it as a feature, will not get the same findings as the receiver will sum the resistance into the single power supply, therefore the illusion that its working - which it doesn't.
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 22,993
    You (someone) needs to know what the impedance curve of the loudspeaker looks like to understand the differences between the HF and LF sections if they're split for biamping. Otherwise, I'd say you're strictly in the empirical. That's OK, but I wouldn't over-interpret the empirical data were I you.

    On the other hand, as a card-carrying scientist, I would never discourage one from experimentation -- as long as none of the magic smoke escapes from any of the components being experimented with (or upon). :)
  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,456
    Since you have said skills in science, I will leave any smoke inducing experiments to those who can fix after the fire. My experiment is a bust and done for now - onward and upward (I think)
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 22,993
    Oh, I hear you! :)
    Harm can be done.
    That's what I like about vacuum tube hifi hardware -- it's pretty forgiving of end-user screw ups (with the exception of open-circuiting a transformer-coupled power amp, which can be -- not a good thing).
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,396
    joecoulson wrote: »
    I imagine other folks who think they are Bi-amping with a receiver which as it as a feature, will not get the same findings as the receiver will sum the resistance into the single power supply, therefore the illusion that its working - which it doesn't.

    Maybe, maybe not.
    It is technically still 2 separate amps running, but limited by one supply.

    Some say there are still benefits, but to me doubtful.
    Real bi amping requires 2 amps, 2 power supplies, and a crossover before the amps.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Epos-Now gone
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,456
    K_M wrote: »
    Real bi amping requires 2 amps, 2 power supplies, and a crossover before the amps.

    more than that - based on results above
    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
  • EndersShadowEndersShadow Posts: 16,828
    K_M wrote: »
    Real bi amping requires 2 amps, 2 power supplies, and a crossover before the amps.

    TECHNICALLY that’s called “going active”.

    Bi-amping is everything you said EXCEPT having the crossover before the amps.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,396
    K_M wrote: »
    Real bi amping requires 2 amps, 2 power supplies, and a crossover before the amps.

    TECHNICALLY that’s called “going active”.

    Bi-amping is everything you said EXCEPT having the crossover before the amps.

    I thought that also.....but found a definition saying otherwise...who knows..lol
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Epos-Now gone
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,692
    K_M wrote: »
    Real bi amping requires 2 amps, 2 power supplies, and a crossover before the amps.

    TECHNICALLY that’s called “going active”.

    Bi-amping is everything you said EXCEPT having the crossover before the amps.

    True bi-amping requires the use of active crossovers, everything else isn't it.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • joecoulsonjoecoulson Posts: 3,456
    Yes. Because I had in line crossovers but not active and still had the passive’s inside the speakers and it didn’t work properly obviously. I would also need gain adjustment base on my particular circumstance to match up the ohm/output for low vs high.
    And still would prob need three amps per side for three way operation.

    Auralic Vega G1/Rega TT/Denon SACD - Parasound P6 - PS Audio M700x2 - Elac Adante AF-61
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