Tube trolling

VR3

So since I've kind of settled down on the system. I decided to start tube rolling

Throw out some Suggestions for me...

Mullard 12au7, no specifics. Good highs and mids, shy on the midbass and low bass

GE 5 star 5814a triple mica gray plates.. Great mid bass and low bass, slight etch to the highs and muddy upper midrange

Rca clear tops 12au7... Favorite so far, great mids and highs, good midbass and low bass with minimal high end etch if any

Have rca long black plate d getters coming

12au7
Ecc82
5814a

Are compatible with the candela pre

JuanR

Siemens ECC82 Silver Plates - not the grey plates people call silver - but actual CHROME Plated!

This is a fantastic tube! Great all around, I use them in my Cary Audio Dac-200ts but have also used them in a few past pre-amps and it NEVER disappointed. Among the best sounding in my opinion, if not the BEST!

Those RCA clear tops are hidden gems, sound GREAT. I have also had success with Mullards and Telefunkens.

I need you to build me some Seas Crescendo crossovers....you need some Siemens Silver Plates!

Juan

pitdogg2

@heiney9 you got your ears on?

heiney9

Ivan, I have commented, reviewed and pontificated so many times, I honestly don't have the energy to rehash it all. If someone truly wants to get their learn on or get some info one would need to search for my posts.

In general anything from the mid 50's to the mid 60's are the only tubes you should consider. After that, processes slipped, materials were not up to old standards either because of regulation or cost (mostly the former) and the quality just isn't as consistent. When one talks about tubes, it help to include the year of the tube.

Simply saying Mullards sound "this way or that way" without being specific what designation/generation tube it is means nothing, as there are some killer sounding Mullards.

The thing with Mullards is it's one of the most recognizable and storied companies in the tube world and Mullards were being manufactured right up until the early 80's (not including the New Sensor Russian New Stock they sell today). And those tubes are merely mediocre and have none of the nuances and characteristics old Mullard made tubes have.

Right now my favorite Euro ECC82 is the long plate, Hamburg made Valvo's with the slant D.

My favorite American 12AU7 is the early 50's Westinghouse, long black plate with a D getter on a copper post. Hard to find the real deal as they were later contracted out to RCA and sometimes Sylvania.

But that's just at the moment, my preferences change as I roll in old favorites and rediscover the nuances that make tube rolling so appealing.

H9

pitdogg2

True Brock
Trey has different ears and gear and that could be the difference as well.
Time to try the search bar Trey

heiney9

RCA and GE 5963 black plates are excellent too as the 5963 is compatible as well.

Hidden gems are early Brimar long black plates with slant sq qetter. Expensive, rare, but very satisfying. Gray plates are nice as well, just not quite in the same league as the black plates. They make a black 1/2 box plate with either 6067 designation or CV491 and they are superb.

There is a complete other history with Brimar and Mullard tubes with special civilian and military markings and coding. It's confusing because a CV491, 6067, CV4003, 13D3, are markings that signify the same tube electrically, but depending on if they are Military or Civilian use depends on the markings and in some cases the hours expected.

50's Tung Sol 12AU7, black glass w/black plates are superb as well. Hard to see the plates sometimes. I'll also repeat that Tung Sol is a hugely underrated American tube company. They made superb sounding tubes that were extremely reliable and tight tolerances. They don't get as much love as RCA, Sylvania and GE, but they are superb.

H9

mhardy6647

Sometimes you've gotta go back before the 1950s, too -- depends on the tube.


2A3sp n box by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

(full disclosure: that's a Ken-Rad single-plate 2A3, not a Raytheon But it's a good tube & it deserved a good box)

Pontification time -- feel free to skip the paragraph below, I don't mind.

Now, I don't ever want to give the impression that I don't believe or recognize that different tubes can sound different -- in the context of this thread, I do want to go on record as saying that circuit design (and passive components) are at least as important. By which all I mean to imply (and I do mean to imply this!) is that it might not be the best use of one's hard-earned lucre to put, say, 800 dollas worth of vacuum tubes in to a $100 brand-new Brand X amplifier.

DSkip

For new production look at the Treasures.

https://www.amazon.com/Matched-PSVANE-Premium-12AU7-T-Treasure/dp/B00N4RNNTG

heiney9

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Sometimes you've gotta go back before the 1950s, too -- depends on the tube.


2A3sp n box by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

(full disclosure: that's a Ken-Rad single-plate 2A3, not a Raytheon But it's a good tube & it deserved a good box)

Pontification time -- feel free to skip the paragraph below, I don't mind.

Now, I don't ever want to give the impression that I don't believe or recognize that different tubes can sound different -- in the context of this thread, I do want to go on record as saying that circuit design (and passive components) are at least as important. By which all I mean to imply (and I do mean to imply this!) is that it might not be the best use of one's hard-earned lucre to put, say, 800 dollas worth of vacuum tubes in to a $100 brand-new Brand X amplifier.

I was speaking about small signal tubes of the 12Ax, Au, At and ECC8x tubes. Not too many of those before 1950, give or take a few years.

heiney9

New production tubes will never sound as good or nuanced as old stock tubes. While they are an option, IMHO, stick with signal tubes from the 50's and 60's for the best absolute sound experience.

I have yet to hear a Newly manufactured small signal tube that comes close to a classic tube from the 50's-60's.

New power tubes are a different story.

DSkip

heiney9 wrote: »

New tubes will never sound as good or nuanced as old stock tubes. While they are an option, IMHO, stick with signal tubes from the 50's and 60's for the best absolute sound experience.

I have yet to hear a Newly manufactured small signal tube that comes close to a classic tube from the 50's-60's.

New power tubes are a different story.

I've tried several variants, including some from you, and not gotten the same experience in the MastersounD amps as I have from the Treasures. In the Dueventi, I can't find a pair that bests the stock JJ 12au7's. Even others who have tried went back to the stocks because they just work in that amp. Speaking in absolutes, as you know, is a no-go in this hobby.

So, I'll stick with the recommendation of the Treasures. They are solid tubes for the money and have a nice holographic sound without an etched top end. They are not euphonic but give a rather neutral yet pleasing tone. It might not best NOS in HIS gear, but its worth investigating.

heiney9

Stock JJ's? Really, I'd have to hear that. JJ's usually end up in the garbage can. Blunt, but honest.

But there are no absolutes in this hobby and it's certainly all opinions and experiences. In 15 years rolling tubes in all kinds of gear, JJ's nor Psvane's have ever bested the best Old stock tubes, nor have they really come close.

I also don't blindly believe that a particular circuit was tweaked to make a certain, single tube brand sound best. Every designer designs with a particular tube type in mind, but in all my cases of gear, tube rolling elicited the best sound to my ears.

But this is just one person's experience.

H9

mhardy6647

heiney9 wrote: »

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Sometimes you've gotta go back before the 1950s, too -- depends on the tube.


2A3sp n box by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

(full disclosure: that's a Ken-Rad single-plate 2A3, not a Raytheon But it's a good tube & it deserved a good box)

Pontification time -- feel free to skip the paragraph below, I don't mind.

Now, I don't ever want to give the impression that I don't believe or recognize that different tubes can sound different -- in the context of this thread, I do want to go on record as saying that circuit design (and passive components) are at least as important. By which all I mean to imply (and I do mean to imply this!) is that it might not be the best use of one's hard-earned lucre to put, say, 800 dollas worth of vacuum tubes in to a $100 brand-new Brand X amplifier.

I was speaking about small signal tubes of the 12Ax, Au, At and ECC8x tubes. Not too many of those before 1950, give or take a few years.

Actually, in terms of, e.g., the miniature twin triodes, I totally agree with you (the 12AX7, e.g., was developed in the late 1940s)-- Smaller tubes work better at high frequencies (in WWII the so-called 'acorn tubes' were commonly used for high frequency radio). For some of the octal based (and pre-octal based) small signal tubes, pre 1950s production is probably well worthy of consideration, though.

e.g., see https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/

DSkip

heiney9 wrote: »

Stock JJ's? Really, I'd have to hear that. JJ's usually end up in the garbage can. Blunt, but honest.

But there are no absolutes in this hobby and it's certainly all opinions and experiences. In 15 years rolling tubes in all kinds of gear, JJ's nor Psvane's have ever bested the best Old stock tubes, nor have they really come close.

I also don't blindly believe that a particular circuit was tweaked to make a certain, single tube brand sound best. Every designer designs with a particular tube type in mind, but in all my cases of gear, tube rolling elicited the best sound to my ears.

But this is just one person's experience.

H9

I agree on the JJ's Brock. The Dueventi is unique in the lineup and its the only amp I recommend clients NOT tube roll with. It's great though since a complete retube of the amp will only set you back $100. I've shared this with Kerry several times and he questions my judgment every time, but the proof is in the sound.

I have a full PSVane/Shuguang complement in the Compact 845 and its magical. The 12au7 maintain the depth in the soundstage that I lost with most NOS tubes I tried. The NOS tubes were definitely euphonic but didn't give me all the spatial qualities I know the MastersounD amps were capable of. Even the JJ's had better holographic tendencies than the NOS ones. It's actually nice to know there is a current production 12au7 that works well in these amps as it makes recommendations much easier.

mhardy6647

so, speaking of flavors of vacuum tubes...
I feel compelled to mention two sources from the 1990s that have had tremedous impact on, if nothing else, the price and availability of certain flavors of certain vacuum tube types common in hifi.

1) Vacuum Tube Valley magazine. Published by the late Charles Kittleson. All of the issues, as PDFs, may be found in cyberspace -- but some patience and some digging is required. VTV played a big role in the 1990s resurgence of interest in vacuum tube hifi (especially some of the more arcane manifestations thereof). The collection's worthy of acquisition for anyone with an interest in the topic.

Here, e.g., is a link to an index of the VTV issues.
http://www.tubecollectors.org/archives/VTVDEXnu.pdf



2) "Joe's Tube Lore". (in)famous collection of opinions about various flavors of hifi tubes (of the B9A base kind) from Joe S.

https://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html

pitdogg2

Agree with Brock on the Tung-Sol's. One of my favorite 6sn7 and 6ak5 tubes. If i could afford the Tung-Sol round plate 6sn7 tubes I'd have a pair but they are well out of my reach.

Did Hytron ever make any of the 12xx7 tubes? I've had several of those that are pretty good. CBS ended up buying them out.

heiney9

Joes tube lore is kind of a joke. He didn't like anything. He just disliked some less...lol

heiney9

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Agree with Brock on the Tung-Sol's. One of my favorite 6sn7 and 6ak5 tubes. If i could afford the Tung-Sol round plate 6sn7 tubes I'd have a pair but they are well out of my reach.

Did Hytron ever make any of the 12xx7 tubes? I've had several of those that are pretty good. CBS ended up buying them out.

Yes, they did, but they are very hard to find. Most CBS tubes are GE (gray plates). I have a lone 1953 CBS 12AX7 black plate I am trying to find a mate for. I've been scouring for over a year and have yet to find a "true" version. Many are rebranded RCA's which are a very rare version with a Horseshoe getter on a tall post with 2 wires attached at the ends. That's the RCA 12AX7 to get, if you can find the real deal. RCA's 12AX7, bp's with the slant square or also called D (no post) are the very common RCA's.

RCA 12AX7's with the horseshoe getter on tall post is very, very rare. I have 3 and am looking for a reasonably priced 4th to make a quad. So far it seems 1955 and 1956 came with this variant. They have a bit more articulation and bigger soundstage as well as tighter bass compared to the more common RCA, which it a great tube also.

The CBS bp is even more rare, almost non-existent. I found 1, I'll find another. Ironically the one I have is labeled for Fisher, not CBS. You have to look a few key construction cues to tell the real deal. I am told they sound superb, even better than the 1948-1951 Tung Sol 12AX7 bp's. Which I have 3 pairs of, also harder to find, and one of my top 3 12AX7's.

H9

mhardy6647

heiney9 wrote: »

Joes tube lore is kind of a joke. He didn't like anything. He just disliked some less...lol

Thus did I say (in) famous.

Oh, one other thing that seems worthy of mention in the context of tube lore
Rebranding of tubes, as mentioned in some other posts above, was extremely common in the Golden Age. Sometimes, this can work profoundly in one's favor. The "International" brand, e.g., was just a name (AFAIK). An "International" box could have pretty much anything inside -- sometimes those anythings were darned good tubes.

As always, "Chance favors the prepared mind".

In the US, virtually all vacuum tubes (as well as many other components -- notably, speaker drivers) will be labeled by the EIA manufacturer code of their maker. Thus, an EIA code list comes in extremely handy.

So... here's a pretty comprehensive one.
http://www.audiophool.com/Misc/EIAcodes1961.pdf

European manufacturers' codes and IDs are more abstruse (to me) -- @heiney9 is up on 'em and I don't have a comprehensive list, so I'll defer to him or others... but by and large the true provenance of a "what the heck is this?" tube can usually be sussed out.

heiney9

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Agree with Brock on the Tung-Sol's. One of my favorite 6sn7 and 6ak5 tubes. If i could afford the Tung-Sol round plate 6sn7 tubes I'd have a pair but they are well out of my reach.

My favorite pair of 6SL7 tubes are a 1951 pair of Tung Sol 6SU7GTY, round black plates. Tight tolerance from the factory! What a superb sounding pair of tubes. Pricey (not as pricey as the 6SN7 version) but worth it.

The early CBS 5814 bp with the flat ladder plates vs. the notched plates is a stellar 12AU7 equivalent. The later ones tend to not be as magical as the earlier ones.

H9

dromunds

Agree the authentic CBS 5814A and 5814WA are superb 12au7 variants.

heiney9

To add to one of the above posts. Most CBS gray plate 12AX7's are made by GE. It's rare to find a real CBS 12AX7 gray plate and most times it's labeled Hytron. GE black plate 12AX7's are usually Ken Rad tubes since GE bought out Ken Rad in the mid/late 40's and kept producing the same bp tube. They are more of grayish charcoal color, have a long post bent square getter with a cross bar that has dimples on it. If there aren't dimples on the bent square getter cross bar it's not a Ken-Rad/GE black plate.

Another nice tube

H9

DSkip

Lol. Brock says he won't rehash but tubes are a passion. I love it.

I hope you never stop rehashing. You have too much knowledge about tubes not to. You have a great responsibility.

headrott

heiney9 wrote: »

Stock JJ's? Really, I'd have to hear that. JJ's usually end up in the garbage can. Blunt, but honest.

But there are no absolutes in this hobby and it's certainly all opinions and experiences. In 15 years rolling tubes in all kinds of gear, JJ's nor Psvane's have ever bested the best Old stock tubes, nor have they really come close.

I also don't blindly believe that a particular circuit was tweaked to make a certain, single tube brand sound best. Every designer designs with a particular tube type in mind, but in all my cases of gear, tube rolling elicited the best sound to my ears.

But this is just one person's experience.

H9

Make that two peoples' experience Brock. Although I have never heard Psvane's. I gave up after trying about 6 or 7 different new tubes and comparing them to 50's, 60, 70's and even 80's tubes.

headrott

heiney9 wrote: »

Joes tube lore is kind of a joke. He didn't like anything. He just disliked some less...lol

Agreed Brock on Joe's Tube Lore.

What's the guy (I am pretty sure he's located in Washington state) that had a good tube tube review site, that I unfortunately can't remember the site off the top of my head. he sells on ebay too, but can't remember his ebay name........ Wow, that's a vague description, but hopefully you remember who I am talking about.

heiney9

This guy?

http://www.tubemaze.info/

Yeah, I guess I am passionate about tubes and I really don't mind talking about them. I just needed a nudge and a slow day at work to get me going .

They are just such a fascinating piece of audio. Love the fact that they are 40-50-60+ years old and still operate like new. The glow, the sound, the aesthetics, the history, etc. And for me the HUNT, all makes them extremely enjoyable. I love the fact that if I get a bit bored with my rig, I can roll in some different tubes and change it up a bit. And I like experimenting with different combinations. Granted much of the changes are subtle and minor nuances, but if you are attuned to your rig you can hear a difference.

H9

headrott

Yep, you nailed it Brock. He's a great guy. He's honest, accurate, and I have bought several hundred dollars worth of tubes from him without issue. Definitely recommend him.

tonyp063

All my tube experience is from ham radio in my youth.
Threads like these are important, as I'm starting down a tube audio road.

Sitting quietly back in the weeds & learning. Be assured I'll ask questions at some point.

pitdogg2

At some point Brock is going to get serious about tubes, kind of like when Raife gets more dedicated to audio

JuanR

heiney9 wrote: »

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Agree with Brock on the Tung-Sol's. One of my favorite 6sn7 and 6ak5 tubes. If i could afford the Tung-Sol round plate 6sn7 tubes I'd have a pair but they are well out of my reach.

My favorite pair of 6SL7 tubes are a 1951 pair of Tung Sol 6SU7GTY, round black plates. Tight tolerance from the factory! What a superb sounding pair of tubes. Pricey (not as pricey as the 6SN7 version) but worth it.

The early CBS 5814 bp with the flat ladder plates vs. the notched plates is a stellar 12AU7 equivalent. The later ones tend to not be as magical as the earlier ones.

H9

Thank you SIR H9! for leading me to the Tungsol 6SU7GTY tube....absolutely the best 6SL7 variant to my ears out there....on another note RCA 5691 and the 5692 tubes are also fantastic!

pitdogg2

Yea well do not ever discount the 5692 or 5691 made labeled as Sylvania or CBS they are the exact tube with a different colored base and run much cheaper than RCA.
Yes i too was enlightened today by Brocks 6SU7 info i was not aware they were 6SL7 equivalent. Dude is a deep fountain of information. We chase different tubes yet he is much more rounded in that aspect.