Setting up a subwoofer for 2.1?
mdaudioguy
Posts: 5,165
Right now, I have a Sunfire HRS-8 helping out my bookshelf speakers, connected via speaker-level inputs, so no crossover in front of the speakers. I've just set the crossover and volume on the sub by ear. What do those with similar setups do?
Comments
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This is a great question and can't wait to read the responds as I'm constantly entertaining the idea of adding a sub to my 2ch rig.2ch rig: Speakers: Magnepan LRS w/Magna Riser stands Preamplifier: Parasound P5 Amplifier: Parasound A23 CDP: Pioneer DV-563A Cables: Wireworld Equinox 7 XLR ICs, Wireworld Ultraviolet 7 USB, AudioQuest Q2s, AudioQuest NRG X(preamp)
Standby: LSi9s with VR3's Fortress mods -
I always run a sub with my TV, have the same setup as you, Ed, 'cept that I try to use pre outs whenever possible.
I just balance it by ear. -
By ear with a trusted friend doing the adjustments while I am sitting in the sweet spot. Have always yielded excellent results doing this, no matter the room or venue.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
The goal, of course, is to get this to sound like a system with two full-range speakers.
I like the speaker-level inputs vs line-level, since I know the signal received by the sub is exactly the same as what the speakers are getting. Either way, there's no adjustment on the integrated amp anyhow.
I need some Jedi training to learn how to trust my ears. Adjusting the volume feels like playing with tone controls, which I pledged to give up.
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In my hybrid HT/2 channel setup with the Dynaudios, I have a little martin logan paired with the Dynaudios so I can leave the SVS for LFE duty and run the mains through the peachtree integrated. I finally have it to where I am really satisfied with it, and I am running the Dyns full range and then running preouts from the peachtree to the sub. I use the -3 point from the manufacturers specs on the speakers as a starting point and go from there. Sometimes I bump it up a little, sometimes down. I know have it just below 50 hz, with the level set VERY low, and it sounds really good.
Before I was running the mains through the sub, because it has line level ins and outs and a built in 70 hz high pass. I thought the speakers would sound better in my large room having some of the bass pressure taken away, but they sound MUCH better running full range and the sub just handling the lowest frequencies.Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1 Harmon Kardon HK3490; Bluesounds Node N130; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer -
mdaudioguy wrote: »Right now, I have a Sunfire HRS-8 helping out my bookshelf speakers, connected via speaker-level inputs, so no crossover in front of the speakers. I've just set the crossover and volume on the sub by ear. What do those with similar setups do?
The exact same.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Placement is also key to getting the sub to disappear. I prefer mine in between the two speakers instead of outside if possible.Just a dude doing dude-ly things
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Connected via speaker level and adjusted by ear, same as you. I'm happy with the results.mdaudioguy wrote: »Right now, I have a Sunfire HRS-8 helping out my bookshelf speakers, connected via speaker-level inputs, so no crossover in front of the speakers. I've just set the crossover and volume on the sub by ear. What do those with similar setups do?Integrated Amp: Marantz PM-10
Speakers: Usher MD2
Subwoofer: Rythmik F15HP
DAC: North Star Design Supremo
Streaming Source: AURALiC Aries Mini
SACD Player: Marantz SA8004
Power Source: PS Audio PP3 on dedicated 20amp circuit -
mdaudioguy wrote: »Right now, I have a Sunfire HRS-8 helping out my bookshelf speakers, connected via speaker-level inputs, so no crossover in front of the speakers. I've just set the crossover and volume on the sub by ear. What do those with similar setups do?
Actually, you do have a crossover infront of the speakers, in your sub, when you connected it by the speaker level inputs.
Depending on the bookies, the settings on the sub come down to how much of the mid bass you want the sub to handle, or the bookies. Usually you want the sub to pick up a tad higher than when the bookies start to roll off. Personal tastes come into the equation also as some like their subs to do most the heavy lifting in the mid bass, especially if you have a nice fast sub.
Takes a bit of trial and error, let your ears judge.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
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Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
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codycatalist wrote: »Placement is also key to getting the sub to disappear. I prefer mine in between the two speakers instead of outside if possible.
In my setup, right next to and between the speakers positioned against the wall worked best. The speakers are out ~ 3 feet from the wall.
First I concentrate on best speaker setup. When I went back to conventional speakers from ESL's, I experienced a -10dB mid-range drop out. Once I got that improved through placement, I worked on positioning and adjusting the subs. Lots of trying and fails led to a successful placement.
I use Dayton Audio OmniMic V2 for room sweeps ($300) at the listening position. You can get free sweep software if you don't want to spend. REW EQ Wizard.
I always suggest consulting a musical instrument chart to see how low instruments in the music you like to listen to can go. No use setting up for low frequencies if your music doesn't go there.
Depending on mood I can listen to pipe organ, jazz, classical, rock, pop and even some dubstep. Do a room sweep to see what your room allows. Just because a speaker plays 25Hz - 30kHz +-3dB doesn't mean you will hear that same range +- 3dB in your room. You can get frequency nulls and spikes that need attention.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
mdaudioguy wrote: »Right now, I have a Sunfire HRS-8 helping out my bookshelf speakers, connected via speaker-level inputs, so no crossover in front of the speakers. I've just set the crossover and volume on the sub by ear. What do those with similar setups do?
Actually, you do have a crossover infront of the speakers, in your sub, when you connected it by the speaker level inputs.
Nah, my signal path is not amp to sub to speakers.
I have two sets of cables coming off my amp - one to speakers, one to sub. So, the sub's crossover dial is working more like a filter than a crossover, I guess. -
I can't find a +-3db spec for the VA Haydn Grands, just a frequency response of 40Hz - 20kHz. I might try some measurements and sweeps to see what's really going on.SCompRacer wrote: »
Just because a speaker plays 25Hz - 30kHz +-3dB doesn't mean you will hear that same range +- 3dB in your room. You can get frequency nulls and spikes that need attention.codycatalist wrote: »Placement is also key to getting the sub to disappear. I prefer mine in between the two speakers instead of outside if possible.
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I use the pre outs on the Joule to a SVS SB-2000 and get pretty good results. Currently have LSA Signature 1's in the system. Would rather have a bit more flexibility in contour, but, for the most part am very happy with what it offers. The SVS subs do not offer speaker level inputs (which I've never been a fan of) but, may need if/when the Mastersound makes it's way from Texas to Kentucky. Downfalll with MS is they don't have pre outs on the integrateds.
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mdaudioguy wrote: »mdaudioguy wrote: »Right now, I have a Sunfire HRS-8 helping out my bookshelf speakers, connected via speaker-level inputs, so no crossover in front of the speakers. I've just set the crossover and volume on the sub by ear. What do those with similar setups do?
Actually, you do have a crossover infront of the speakers, in your sub, when you connected it by the speaker level inputs.
Nah, my signal path is not amp to sub to speakers.
I have two sets of cables coming off my amp - one to speakers, one to sub. So, the sub's crossover dial is working more like a filter than a crossover, I guess.
In bold is the way to do it.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Why not a fan of speaker-level inputs? My thinking, is that I know my sub is receiving the exact same signal at essentially the same time as the speakers. Of course, I use line-level with my HT systems and don't notice any deficiencies, but those systems are... different, if you know what I mean.The SVS subs do not offer speaker level inputs (which I've never been a fan of) but, may need if/when the Mastersound makes it's way from Texas to Kentucky. Downfalll with MS is they don't have pre outs on the integrateds. -
mdaudioguy wrote: »
Why not a fan of speaker-level inputs? My thinking, is that I know my sub is receiving the exact same signal at essentially the same time as the speakers. Of course, I use line-level with my HT systems and don't notice any deficiencies, but those systems are... different, if you know what I mean.The SVS subs do not offer speaker level inputs (which I've never been a fan of) but, may need if/when the Mastersound makes it's way from Texas to Kentucky. Downfalll with MS is they don't have pre outs on the integrateds.
Actually, Ed, if you think about it, using the pre outs should be more accurate. The amplifier section will further color the sound before it gets to the sub, which then chokes the signal down so that the internal preamp can use it and send it through yet another amplifier section (more color). Not to mention the time delay... -
There is no time delay using speaker level connections, which is one difference verses the pre out. The other difference is as you correctly pointed out, the sub gets the same signal, colored or whatever that the speakers get. Why would you want the sub to get a different signal as the idea is to blend the sub and speakers as seamlessly as possible.
Al, re-reading your post......you are misunderstanding what the speaker level connection is. It is connecting the speakers and sub to the same binding posts on the amp. It is not connecting speaker cables to the sub first, then connecting another set of speaker cables from the sub to the speakers.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Jesse, I'm thinking time delay as a function of each amp section the signal has to pass through. For the speakers, it would be: source, (processing, if any), pre, amp, speaker. The sub would get: source, (processing, if any) pre, amp, pre (again), filter, amp, sub.
Now if the sub uses pre-outs for it's source, the signal path becomes that much shorter (and invariably, cleaner) to the sub. -
Hmmm.
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mdaudioguy wrote: »I can't find a +-3db spec for the VA Haydn Grands, just a frequency response of 40Hz - 20kHz. I might try some measurements and sweeps to see what's really going on.
+-3dB is a technical spec that shows a specific volume change in the speakers frequency range. A speaker rated just as 30Hz to 30kHz could mean it makes a sound at 30Hz and 30kHz, but the speaker may play at -6dB or more at 30Hz which means it seems like you turned the volume 1/2 way down.
The room sweep shows what your room does with your speakers frequency range. The majority of us place speakers in rooms that are not designed for audio. All one can do is invest some time and effort into making it perform with a minimum of nulls and spikes. It's amazing what a few inches of movement or properly placed acoustic treatments can achieve. You may improve one frequency and harm another.
It's best to keep notes about placement and what results so you don't repeat something that didn't work. To me it is too frustrating to try and solve in a day. You just have to quit and listen to the music and try again another day.
Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
Jesse, I'm thinking time delay as a function of each amp section the signal has to pass through. For the speakers, it would be: source, (processing, if any), pre, amp, speaker. The sub would get: source, (processing, if any) pre, amp, pre (again), filter, amp, sub.
Now if the sub uses pre-outs for it's source, the signal path becomes that much shorter (and invariably, cleaner) to the sub.
Pre-amp in a sub?
If you use the preamp/subwoofer output from your preamp or integrated, the signal seen by your subwoofer does not include the tonal balance and timing cues created by the amp. That is why the speaker level (high level) is better.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Jesse, I'm thinking time delay as a function of each amp section the signal has to pass through. For the speakers, it would be: source, (processing, if any), pre, amp, speaker. The sub would get: source, (processing, if any) pre, amp, pre (again), filter, amp, sub.
Now if the sub uses pre-outs for it's source, the signal path becomes that much shorter (and invariably, cleaner) to the sub.
Pre-amp in a sub?
If you use the preamp/subwoofer output from your preamp or integrated, the signal seen by your subwoofer does not include the tonal balance and timing cues created by the amp. That is why the speaker level (high level) is better.
Interesting. Another thing to play with, as right now I have the light duty 2CH rig in our living room set up with the sub out, via wireless. However the wireless transmitter does have line level inputs as well.Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
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Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD. -
Jesse, I'm thinking time delay as a function of each amp section the signal has to pass through. For the speakers, it would be: source, (processing, if any), pre, amp, speaker. The sub would get: source, (processing, if any) pre, amp, pre (again), filter, amp, sub.
Now if the sub uses pre-outs for it's source, the signal path becomes that much shorter (and invariably, cleaner) to the sub.
Pre-amp in a sub?
If you use the preamp/subwoofer output from your preamp or integrated, the signal seen by your subwoofer does not include the tonal balance and timing cues created by the amp. That is why the speaker level (high level) is better.
Yeah, preamp in a sub... Kinda has to be there for low pass and volume control. All inputs run through it before being sent to the main amp section.
Anywho, you're suggesting that the pre-outs from the pre or integrated are a straight shot from the source (minus volume control), yes? -
Never gave any thought to whether a sub has a pre amp or not. Funny, no one talks about that.....hmmm. Regardless, personal experience says it sounds better using the speaker level connections.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I decided to get a new sub and shift the little Sunfire to HT-only duty. The more I listened, the more I noticed it just wasn't as musical as I had hoped. It has great output for its size, but only in what seems to be a narrow range. Since my hybrid system is biased towards 2-channel, the Sunfire gets demoted. Also, this will allow me to dedicate one sub to HT LFE duty.
Next sub up for 2-channel... a Martin Logan Dynamo 700w. I've set several of these up for others and have always been impressed with this 10" down-firing sealed box. Since they've recently been discontinued, they're currently available at a ridiculous price.
Although it comes wireless ready, I think the line inputs will be better for 2-channel performance. This sub seems like it should supplement my bookshelf speakers nicely.
A couple of oddities - a non-stop bright blue flashing LED on the back when not connected wirelessly. Seriously, this thing doesn't give up. Also, it comes with spikes - that get inserted into the rubber feet. Yes, these spikes decouple! I'll use it this way for a while, but eventually, I think it will benefit from proper spiking. -
My integrated has pre-outs for subwoofer connection. At the moment, I just have a single RCA sub cable connected, but I'm thinking two would be better. Any suggestions for a PAIR of decent sub cables? Maybe 2 meters in the $100 range?
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Idk, but around $450 new online. Sold for $700-$800 in the past year. Some used on eBay under $300, but who knows what you get there.mdaudioguy wrote: »I decided to get a new sub and shift the little Sunfire to HT-only duty. The more I listened, the more I noticed it just wasn't as musical as I had hoped. It has great output for its size, but only in what seems to be a narrow range. Since my hybrid system is biased towards 2-channel, the Sunfire gets demoted. Also, this will allow me to dedicate one sub to HT LFE duty.
Next sub up for 2-channel... a Martin Logan Dynamo 700w. I've set several of these up for others and have always been impressed with this 10" down-firing sealed box. Since they've recently been discontinued, they're currently available at a ridiculous price.
Although it comes wireless ready, I think the line inputs will be better for 2-channel performance. This sub seems like it should supplement my bookshelf speakers nicely.
A couple of oddities - a non-stop bright blue flashing LED on the back when not connected wirelessly. Seriously, this thing doesn't give up. Also, it comes with spikes - that get inserted into the rubber feet. Yes, these spikes decouple! I'll use it this way for a while, but eventually, I think it will benefit from proper spiking.
What's a good price on those Martin Logan subs on the used market? Maybe I'll follow your lead. -
I could see me getting a second one. You know, balance and all that.
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See how the smaller sub on the right throws off the symmetry?? I could stash that one in the corner for HT booms and use a pair of ML subs for 2-channel.
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mdaudioguy wrote: »My integrated has pre-outs for subwoofer connection. At the moment, I just have a single RCA sub cable connected, but I'm thinking two would be better. Any suggestions for a PAIR of decent sub cables? Maybe 2 meters in the $100 range?
Is two better though or does it not make a difference? I always wondered but just went with the flow.
*Edit* I read that the preouts are usually set to output mono so it wouldn't make much of a difference, that is unless yours is different. Maybe the manual of the integrated would clarify.Just a dude doing dude-ly things
"Temptation is the manifestation of desire which equals necessity." - Mikey081057
" I have always had a champange taste with a beer budget" - Rick88
"Just because the thread is getting views don't mean much .. I like a good train wreck doesn't mean i want to be in one..." - pitdogg2
"Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know." - heiney9
"Audiophiles are the male equivalent of cat ladies." - Audiokarma Member
