Music storage/playback media HDD vs SDD vs Flash

dragon1952

I've Googled the crud out of this but I still can't find a satisfactory/obvious conclusion so I'll ask here. And I realize there are likely various other parameters that have to be considered in the whole scheme of things, but generally speaking, and please just assume all other hardware/software in the path are perfect just for the sake of this argument, and all it comes down to is the choice of music storage/playback media, has anyone experimented with a computer based music playback system using these various storage/playback media options and been able to discern a preference/difference. Strictly talking about storage/playback via internal or external HDD, SSD, Flash memory or whatever else you might have tried.

Clipdat

IMO, it shouldn't matter since it's all going into a buffer before/during playback. Therefore the storage medium that the file lives on and gets read from shouldn't be a contributor toward the sound quality.

nooshinjohn

DSkip wrote: »

Flash is best, then solid state, then HDD.

Why?

Clipdat

Yes, would like to know your source/reference for this conclusion as well.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

Flash is best, then solid state, then HDD.

Why?

afterburnt

I assume the one that introduces the least noise into the signal is best. Maybe flash is better because it doesn't use any cables that don't matter?

dragon1952

Clipdat wrote: »

IMO, it shouldn't matter since it's all going into a buffer before/during playback. Therefore the storage medium that the file lives on and gets read from shouldn't be a contributor toward the sound quality.

In theory but that's the conundrum ;^ )

RobbyKY

>>Flash is best, then solid state, then HDD.
>>Why

Lots of factors at play there. Flash & SSD both use NAND memory however there are two versions that make a big difference. SLC & MLC. SLC is “Single Level Cell” and can only hold one bit state, a “1” or a “0”. MLC is the “Multi Level” version designed to increase storage density for the same real estate on the die and thus can hold multiple bits in multiple states. Example a 2-level cell can hold two bits at “00”, “01”, “10” or “11” states. Trouble is MLC can suffer some corruption due to the different charge levels in the same cell so SLC is the most “reliable” and is typical of a Flash or Thumb drive while most all SSD use MLC architecture.

Then there's the problem of the way an SSD stores data. First, NAND actually wears out over time based on number of reads and writes a cell gets. This is getting better and better but all SSD’s still use advanced processes to manage it. Second, pages of data get written into blocks that can’t be overwritten on the fly like a traditional hard drive. If you erase data, the erased cells can’t be reused automatically due to the nature of the way they must be refreshed. Older SSD would thus get completely filled up before the controllers could start reinitializing erased blocks for new data so they would slow down over time. A new SSD was noticeably faster than a used version of the same drive that had been in your computer for six months.

Newer SSD models overcomes this by using an advanced on-board micro controller and even separate memory blocks to manage optimization of data flow. It will do something called “Garbage Collection” and “Wear Leveling” among other things where it keeps track of unused blocks, spends idle time resetting the cells containing “garbage” (a high power consumption process) and then trying to distribute new page writes into blocks evenly based on historical usage of each block . Doing this, it can read data from a block, store it in a new location and then rewrite it to a more efficient or less used location or block. On top of all this, it has to manage any detected errors and employee ECC techniques to recover.

So, best thing to do is write all music files to either Flash or SSD once and only once and then only perform read operations when you play your music. My guess is the low tech Flash controller will add way less variation (errors?) than the complex SSD controller that will still be running it’s wear leveling protocols and still doing block shuffling over time.

No where near an expert on this but just a guess on where the “Flash is better than SSD is better than HDD” rating originates. I’ve used all three and mainly got tired of my host computer introducing “crap” due to all the other processes it was running in the background - thanks Microsoft. Was using a Dragonfly DAC and realized room for improvement existed there as well. Switched to Synology NAS with multiple 8TB “Red” drives feeding my 2-channels systems through Oppo 95/103/105 DAC’s and been very happy with performance and quality. (The 95 seems to sound best to me while the 103D is used with my HT rig)

Robby

billbillw

^^^
Actually, most current flash devices (removable types) are TLC (Tri Level Cell), which is significantly less reliable than MLC. SLC is more expensive to produce and usually only found in enterprise SSD or industrial NAND devices.

Overall, flash devices are much more prone to corruption than any SSD. The controller, cache, firmware, wear leveling, and higher quality NAND all help to make SSD faster and more reliable. I've only had 1 SSD out of 20 go bad in the last 5 years. I've had countless USB thumb drives go bad, often after only a few dozen uses.

Overall, it really depends how you are storing the music, how it interfaces with the final DAC, and how much potential electrical interference can get into the final analog stage.

I would say that a music stored on remote network storage feeding a small fanless PC type device with an SSD, NOT running Windows (ie Linux or Mac OS), set to bit perfect playback, by asynchronous USB to a high quality DAC will win out every time.

afterburnt

So an Auralic Aries Mini.

dragon1952

afterburnt wrote: »

So an Auralic Aries Mini.

Ha ha :^ )

dragon1952

OK, thanks guys....I learned a lot right there. I'm using a NUC7i5 with an Intel 760P M.2 SSD for the OS and JRiver on a 2nd partition ...Windows 10 LTSB stripped down as much as possible....no networking at all..... Just USB out to an Intona USB Isolator then into the USB input of my Directstream. I'm currently using a cheap ADATA external SSD to store my music connected via USB. My goal is to get a better drive solution for the music storage, preferably externally powered with a good LPS and potentially even power the NUC via LPS (Uptone JS-2 would power both nicely).

billbillw

dragon1952 wrote: »

OK, thanks guys....I learned a lot right there. I'm using a NUC7i5 with an Intel 760P M.2 SSD for the OS and JRiver on a 2nd partition ...Windows 10 LTSB stripped down as much as possible....no networking at all..... Just USB out to an Intona USB Isolator then into the USB input of my Directstream. I'm currently using a cheap ADATA external SSD to store my music connected via USB. My goal is to get a better drive solution for the music storage, preferably externally powered with a good LPS and potentially even power the NUC via LPS (Uptone JS-2 would power both nicely).

The biggest improvement you could make would be to get away from using Windows. Don't be afraid of networking either. Network data transfer by a SAMBA or NFS share would be more reliable than running a USB drive, and also reduce nearby electrical fields. Look into one of the stand-alone Linux based audiophile OS, like Daphile, Roon embedded, Audiophile Linux, or Volumio. A little bit of learning curve, but in the end, they will be tru bit-perfect playback if configured correctly.

dragon1952

Yeah, I'm looking at Linux but figured I'd try Windows 10 LTSB which much leaner than regular Windows. I'm done with the networking solutions. Everything is in my man cave and the NUC fits in the rack. I had it connected via ethernet for years and just started playing around with USB which I like way better so far but still tweaking.

billbillw

The problem with Windows is not that its bloated, but its audio output is corrupted by default, from an audiophile standpoint anyway. Directsound messes with everything you are trying to do with respect to bit-perfect playback. Yes, you can improve somewhat if you have ASIO drivers available for your device, but none of that is needed with Linux or Mac OS.

afterburnt

@billbillw any thoughts on Foobar and Fidelizer on Windows?

recoveryone

Question.....Why do you need an OS if you are just using a drive for playback?

I have a 4TB NAS connected to my network and my Pioneer N-50 just reads those tracks that I have stored from there. My Squeezebox LMS runs off a micro Dell system via wifi to 6 other Touches I have in the house. If you have catalog your music with proper Tags your Oppo should be able to read them without a issue.

afterburnt

dragon1952

recoveryone wrote: »

Question.....Why do you need an OS if you are just using a drive for playback?

I have a 4TB NAS connected to my network and my Pioneer N-50 just reads those tracks that I have stored from there. My Squeezebox LMS runs off a micro Dell system via wifi to 6 other Touches I have in the house. If you have catalog your music with proper Tags your Oppo should be able to read them without a issue.

Well, I'm not actually sure what you are trying to say. You have a Dell but it doesn't have an OS? And I don't have an Oppo in my 2-channel system nor would I want one in that capacity. You have a network player and I don't. I mean, you've got to have an OS there somewhere.

billbillw

afterburnt wrote: »

@billbillw any thoughts on Foobar and Fidelizer on Windows?

I use Foobar on my Windows PC. Haven't tried fidelizer. However, that is just my 'desktop' system. A pair of BA bookshelf powered by a Sony UDA-1. I don't consider it to be bit-perfect, and even if it was, I don't think I could hear the difference on that system.
Fidelizer may have some improvement, but overall, I think simpler is better with digital playback...that is why my nod goes to Linux/MacOS. They get it right without adding additional layers of software.

recoveryone

dragon1952 wrote: »

recoveryone wrote: »

Question.....Why do you need an OS if you are just using a drive for playback?

I have a 4TB NAS connected to my network and my Pioneer N-50 just reads those tracks that I have stored from there. My Squeezebox LMS runs off a micro Dell system via wifi to 6 other Touches I have in the house. If you have catalog your music with proper Tags your Oppo should be able to read them without a issue.

Well, I'm not actually sure what you are trying to say. You have a Dell but it doesn't have an OS? And I don't have an Oppo in my 2-channel system nor would I want one in that capacity. You have a network player and I don't. I mean, you've got to have an OS there somewhere.

I have two setups for my home:

1. 4TB NAS with no OS that acts as my main backup for everything Cell phone pic's doc and music. It is connected via cat5 to my router. The Pioneer N-50 uses that NAS to playback music

2. I have a mini form factor Dell with Win7 on it in the garage that servers as the music source for my Squeezebox system ( I have 6 Touch's) to run the LMS for the system it has 2TB external Drive. that system works via wifi.

Sorry for the confusion,

From my experience any of the above drives system you suggest will work fine for music and the speed of each drive will not effect the playback ability. I would be only looking at storage space, and conventional drives are so cheap now days you can get 4TB for under $100.

billbillw

recoveryone wrote: »

dragon1952 wrote: »

recoveryone wrote: »

Question.....Why do you need an OS if you are just using a drive for playback?

I have a 4TB NAS connected to my network and my Pioneer N-50 just reads those tracks that I have stored from there. My Squeezebox LMS runs off a micro Dell system via wifi to 6 other Touches I have in the house. If you have catalog your music with proper Tags your Oppo should be able to read them without a issue.

Well, I'm not actually sure what you are trying to say. You have a Dell but it doesn't have an OS? And I don't have an Oppo in my 2-channel system nor would I want one in that capacity. You have a network player and I don't. I mean, you've got to have an OS there somewhere.

I have two setups for my home:

1. 4TB NAS with no OS that acts as my main backup for everything Cell phone pic's doc and music. It is connected via cat5 to my router. The Pioneer N-50 uses that NAS to playback music

2. I have a mini form factor Dell with Win7 on it in the garage that servers as the music source for my Squeezebox system ( I have 6 Touch's) to run the LMS for the system it has 2TB external Drive. that system works via wifi.

Sorry for the confusion,

From my experience any of the above drives system you suggest will work fine for music and the speed of each drive will not effect the playback ability. I would be only looking at storage space, and conventional drives are so cheap now days you can get 4TB for under $100.

Sounds like you have at least 3 OS mentioned there. The NAS actually does have an OS...it is likely a Linux based OS that provides DLNA/SAMBA/NFS.
The Dell has to have something running, LMS? That's a linux OS. The Squeezebox touch, also have OS, based on Linux. Heck, even the Pioneer player has an OS, built in...also, likely based on Linux. Just because you don't see a login screen and desktop, doesn't mean it isn't using an OS.

recoveryone

The NAS was wiped clean before use to be used as a simple storage device.
The Dell has Win7 as I stated (please read)
The Pioneer N-50 reads the info as files just as it does from the USB port

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/2-Channel+Components/N-50#videos

billbillw

recoveryone wrote: »

The NAS was wiped clean before use to be used as a simple storage device.
The Dell has Win7 as I stated (please read)
The Pioneer N-50 reads the info as files just as it does from the USB port

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/2-Channel+Components/N-50#videos

All have an OS. What do you think the Pioneer firmware is? Also, the NAS must have an OS. How else would you be able to access the files over network?

recoveryone

I posted the Pioneer link, I could not find a name for it, so maybe you can show me or are you just guessing? DNLA is not an OS, so make sure we understand what you are calling an OS.

dragon1952

Doesn't really matter guys.

afterburnt

Yeah, at this point what difference does it make?

billbillw

Sorry guys. Got carried away.