A Saga for you Sch!!t-heads
Comments
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Thanks for your insight, sounds like you're right on the money. If they designed it as a buffer to simply aid in long cable runs, they they probably didn't want to add any colorization/distortion. Seems like they achieved their design goal.
I don't have any issues regarding it's sonic performance, nor am I detecting any obvious shortcomings. I think anyone with a critical ear who values transparency and clarity would enjoy the Schiit Saga.
The only "disappointment" might be for someone like myself who was looking for an introduction into what tubes have to offer. It's not going to give you that "lush, three dimensional, airy, warm, etc" tube sound.
However, there's nothing wrong with it being a very nice passive analog solid state preamp, with a clean implementation of a tube buffer.mhardy6647 wrote: »Those results suggest that the active circuit in the Saga is in fact operating as a buffer, which is impressive, actually. If so, there are certainly cases in which it could improve performance, but only if there were a substantial impedance mismatch between source and load.
The ol' rule of thumb (which is no more, nor less, than just that). Input impedance of the load should be at least ten times the output impedance of the source.
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/46948/the-10x-rule-for-impedance-bridging
EDIT: A proper buffer should be inaudible (except in cases where it improves the ability of the source to drive the load). Those little Asian-sourced "tube buffers", AFAIK, are typically designed to add a little color rather than to operate as proper buffers. I'll avoid further editorial content
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Came across an interesting review of the Schiit Saga on the Audigon forums. Paragraph breaks added by me for readability.
audioman74
1 posts
06-01-2018 10:19pm
I own the Saga and it's awesome. I am so happy with it that I sold my $1700 tube preamp and this little $349.00 single tube preamp now is in my main system, in front of an Odyssey Khartago SE+++ solid state power amp. The first thing one usually notices with the Saga is just how transparent it sounds and how the tube circuit breathes life into the soundstage.
I have been an audiophile for nearly 45 years, have owned preamps over 10x the cost (1980's dollars) of the Saga and I just love how this thing sounds, with the tube in the circuit. I also love how Schiit executes the relay-switched stepped attenuator volume control and that it has two pre out RCA jacks, so at night, I just power down the power amp and turn on my headphone amp and run the Saga (with tube circuit) into the headphone amp (Schiit Lyr 2 tube amp), controlling volume with the Saga's remote.
My only two nitpicks with the Saga is I wish the volume had the 128 step volume control instead of the 64 step one and if one of the preouts was on/off switch controlled so I could just keep the Odyssey powered up 24/7. That said, just buy a Saga and save yourself $350. The Saga is, IMHO, probably the best. Price/Performance piece of audio gear I have had the pleasure to own! -
More commentary about the Saga found online:
"Just a word or two about the Saga's sound for those who haven't heard one or can't listen to one in person:
If you value transparency overall more than anything else in a preamp, then you'll love the Saga.
On the other hand, if you're expecting some type of "ooey gooey magical sound" from the tube in the Saga, then you're probably going to be pretty disappointed with the Saga and should probably look elsewhere for that so-called "magical" or "euphonic" sound.
To my ears the Saga's sound is virtually indistinguishable whether you're listening to it in the active or passive mode.
That's how transparent the Saga's tube buffer is."
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I'm going to attempt to put together a Bottlehead Quickie here in the next couple months. I'll let you know how it sounds, I've heard it is a great intro to tubes on a budget.Just a dude doing dude-ly things
"Temptation is the manifestation of desire which equals necessity." - Mikey081057
" I have always had a champange taste with a beer budget" - Rick88
"Just because the thread is getting views don't mean much .. I like a good train wreck doesn't mean i want to be in one..." - pitdogg2
"Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know." - heiney9
"Audiophiles are the male equivalent of cat ladies." - Audiokarma Member -
They sound pretty good -- there (edit) may be some issues with microphonics from the 3S4s, but them suckas is so cheap that one may buy a passel of 'em and find some quiet ones for chump change.
Full disclosure: there may be some other factor (depending on the input impedance of one's power amplifier) that exacerbates the above-mentioned "issue". This is strictly an empirical observation. A hifi colleague here in New England built one, had issues with reverb-type microphonics with his amplifier (not that I recall what it was/is), but we heard essentially none when we put it on my "simple 2A3" amplifier.
Only 6 dB of gain (better'n nothing, though). There's one sittin' in my basement, waitin, for me to build it -- if you can imagine such a thing!
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mhardy6647 wrote: »They sound pretty good -- there (edit) may be some issues with microphonics from the 3S4s, but them suckas is so cheap that one may buy a passel of 'em and find some quiet ones for chump change.
Full disclosure: there may be some other factor (depending on the input impedance of one's power amplifier) that exacerbates the above-mentioned "issue". This is strictly an empirical observation. A hifi colleague here in New England built one, had issues with reverb-type microphonics with his amplifier (not that I recall what it was/is), but we heard essentially none when we put it on my "simple 2A3" amplifier.
Only 6 dB of gain (better'n nothing, though). There's one sittin' in my basement, waitin, for me to build it -- if you can imagine such a thing!
Now look at what you've done Doc! I'm actually researching because of you. I find I have to turn my Denon preamp up to a good 2oclock before the SDAs really open up and that's with the 17(ish)db gain of my Denon pre. Doesn't sound like it would be a good match for my set up. Oh well, off to look at other options.Just a dude doing dude-ly things
"Temptation is the manifestation of desire which equals necessity." - Mikey081057
" I have always had a champange taste with a beer budget" - Rick88
"Just because the thread is getting views don't mean much .. I like a good train wreck doesn't mean i want to be in one..." - pitdogg2
"Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know." - heiney9
"Audiophiles are the male equivalent of cat ladies." - Audiokarma Member -
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It turns out the web is full of nuts and then just a few really smart folks. You've located one of those two.
CJA so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."
More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping." -
It turns out the web is full of nuts and then just a few really smart folks. You've located one of those two.
CJ
Care to expand? -
His nuts? -
ken brydson wrote: »His nuts?
His statement in general. I wasn't really sure what he was inferring or trying to get at. -
1960's vintage. These are sooooo cool. I got these from a guy who actually found them in a warehouse in Brazil... in the jungle. When I opened the musty boxes, I felt so much like Nikita Kruschev I almost started pounding my shoe on the table!
, drop mic statement, +++, insightful, conjuring visions of bliss. Freakin' funny as well. Thorens TD125MKII, SME3009,Shure V15/ Teac V-8000S, Denon DN-790R cass, Teac 3340 RtR decks, Onix CD2...Sumo Electra Plus pre>SAE A1001 amp>Martin Logan Summit's -
Finally! Audio Science Review has posted up their Schiit Saga review/measurements: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-schiit-saga-tube-pre-amp.6520/
And tube rolling: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/tube-rolling-of-schiit-saga-pre-amplifier.6522/ -
Finally! Audio Science Review has posted up their Schiit Saga review/measurements: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-schiit-saga-tube-pre-amp.6520/
And tube rolling: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/tube-rolling-of-schiit-saga-pre-amplifier.6522/
Those guys (that guy) focus/obsess on the weirdest performance parameters, IMO. I enjoy "their" posts but they're festivals of neuroticism (again, IMO).
Still, moth to a flame, gonna go read the links now.
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Actually, having read it, I give him credit for talking at some length about the issue of attenuation-dependent changes in impedance -- the bugbear of most resistive attenuators (unless they're constant impedance "pads") and a personal pet peeve of mine
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I've been as close as creating an account and putting the Freya in the cart...
It would be perfect for my set up as it is currently constituted.
I'm a bit tube lazy.Speakers: Polk Lsim, ATC SCM19 v2, NHT SuperzeroSpeaker Cables: DH Labs, Transparent, Wireworld, Canare, Monster: Beer budget, Bose ears -
do it, do it, do it...
back to the reviews.
FWIW, I found the tube rolling assessment pretty laughable.
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Trust placed in the Pied Piper seems reasonable in the beginning. Then there is "the rest of the story..."
Someone that places all faith in numbers, haphazardly taken with equipment they think they know more about than the manufacturer and then proudly says they refuse to confuse themselves with listening, is someone that's circling down and down and down....
CJA so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."
More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping." -
Trust placed in the Pied Piper seems reasonable in the beginning. Then there is "the rest of the story..."
Someone that places all faith in numbers, haphazardly taken with equipment they think they know more about than the manufacturer and then proudly says they refuse to confuse themselves with listening, is someone that's circling down and down and down....
CJ
Why don't you reach out to Amir directly with your comments? I don't see much sense in posting them here where he will never see them.
Neither myself or anyone else ever said anything about placing all faith in numbers. -
The problem with their reviews, IMO, is they're all numbers -- and not necessarily numbers that have much relevance to hifi.
I don't think that gang over there is interested in such a perspective.
I mean, he calls out a 2 to 4 dB difference in noise spectrum between two vacuum tubes that's, like, 120 dB down.
We're literally and metaphorically in the weeds (well, technically, the noise on those traces is referred to as "grass").
Oh, I also found it amusing that he refers to the Russian dual triode, repeatedly, as "68HC" when the photo he posted right above his prose shows, correctly, 6H8C. Derp.
@Clipdat, please note -- I'm not (we're not, I hope!) shooting the messenger! I appreciate those links; I'd not have seen them otherwise. Thanks for posting them.
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mhardy6647 wrote: »Oh, I also found it amusing that he refers to the Russian dual triode, repeatedly, as "68HC" when the photo he posted right above his prose shows, correctly, 6H8C. Derp.
There were also several other typos that I noticed. -
The very point and focus of his website is that it's primarily numbers/specs based, and not based on subjective listening tests.
I simply find it interesting from a technical engineering perspective, to see how poorly (or proficiently) some products are actually performing - whether or not that performance is audible is not what I'm looking at or concerned with when I read ASR. -
I was indoctrinated into the Saga story last night and have been a Sch!!t head for some time. Dave (daboyz) popped over and dropped of the Saga I stole bought from him. He supplied 1/2 dozen blubs (that's the new term for tubes as created by our own Scott... @MSG ). I believe he stated there wasn't much time on this so I'm assuming I'm still breaking it in. While there I put it into the main rig...
Crap...I've been spending way to much on preamps...
My Odyssey Candela was in as a test to see if it should be sold (I prefer the Tempest). Now I'm wondering if both won't go.
It sure is a "goofy" thing with that clicky volume stuff going on. However, if this is now a fixed resistive volume instead of the wiper style (as in the Alps blue that you see in a lot of equipment) it should be an improvement. Noticeable...prol'y not but cool stuff.
@daboyz can laugh at me as I kept hitting the "X" on the remote and turning it off instead of switching between buffer/no buffer. I think I gave him a mini heart attack the first time.
He has a nice RCA old stock 6SN7 in there and I do notice a very slight difference in volume but not so much yet in presentation. Maybe 1 or 2 clicks louder but it's not very apparent.
...don't tell Sch!!t... I just ordered a pair of ClarityCap CMR's to replace the WIMA's with. Sure hope they fit.
Aaron
Enabler Extraordinaire -
That's my old Saga and it should be broken in.
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I was stupefied by how great it worked in his system. It just got out of the way and let the music flow. Damn nice piece.
I've got dibs on his speakers. -
This is chastisement for those of you who have sold these and a plug for those who are looking for a very good but inexepensive pre...
Been listening to the Saga all morning - various genre - wow... IMHO it beats out the Odyssey Candela costing 4x as much. Soon to pit it against the Tempest.Aaron
Enabler Extraordinaire -
Glad it's working out for you in your system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7CG9YvYDcg
