Phono Pre-Amp Suggestions

dr1978

I am purchasing the Project 2 Experience SB DC turntable with a Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 cartridge from the fine gentleman (and hopefully not serial killer) kharp1. That leaves me in the market for a phono pre-amp.

I got as far as figuring out that the cartridge is an MM Phono when I thought...what am I doing...these guys love spending other people's money, and they sure as hell would do a better job of picking one out than I would...win/win!

My wallet would like to keep this below $100 but I could easily be talked into the $200-$300 range if it makes sense. I would definitely consider used. I don't want to cheap out and get the itch to replace it in the near future, but I also don't want to spend a couple hundred extra if there's not much of an appreciable difference. Of course I know that everything is subjective to one's own ears, so feel free to provide conventional and/or your wisdom and I'll parse it out from there.

Thank You!

maxward

Look at Schiit Mani for $129.00. It has gotten good reviews considering the cost.

dr1978

Looking at Schiit's site has me thinking about a headphone amp as well. I have the Sennheiser Momentum 2's which I heard don't take much power to drive. I haven't actually plugged them into my Marantz AVR yet, I should probably do that first before considering dropping any additional cash.

dromunds

I would do a search on the forum, as there are a whole bunch of previous threads on this topic (some are pretty old but still relevant) and some real good advice given in the past by these enablers around here. There are lots of choices, give it thought and be patient.

mhardy6647

I am keen to try the Schiit Mani sometime...

My personal "cheap" (although it isn't so cheap any more) fave phono preamp remains the Hagerman Bugle (what's the current version? 2? 3?).

Fine sounding yet unassuming little box.

DSC_9813 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

mrbiron's Bugle2, which was held hostage at my house for... a while.



In terms of the über-cheap phono preamps, the ART DJpre ii still looks like it packs a lot of features into a cheap box! No idea how they sound -- gotta do something about
that some day, too...

dr1978

dromunds wrote: »

I would do a search on the forum, as there are a whole bunch of previous threads on this topic (some are pretty old but still relevant) and some real good advice given in the past by these enablers around here. There are lots of choices, give it thought and be patient.

Good advice, and I did consider solely searching old threads, but I was under the assumption based on some prior reading that some thought needs to go into the specific cartridge/amp combo. Maybe it's no more than choosing MM vs MC but I thought there might be more to it than that. So that's why I created a new thread, but I will definitely do some digging. And I have a couple weeks before I'll be in the position to make the purchase so luckily the patience will be forced upon me!

mhardy6647

If one buys a tt with adjustable gain and loading (especially if it permits adjustment of both resistance and capacitance) the compatibility should be pretty much a non-issue.

Do bear in mind that low output cartridge (typically moving coils, but Grado has a series of moving iron cartridges with, if memory serves, nominal output levels of ca. 0.5 mV) will require more gain than a typical moving magnet or moving iron cartridge.

Nota bene: This is not to say that all phono preamps will sound -- or can
be made to sound -- the same with any given cartridge. I sort of hope that would go without saying

dr1978

Thanks for the knowledge!

Clipdat

Take a look at Cambridge Audio's phono preamp offerings.

dromunds

IIRC, you are getting a Sumiko Blue Point No.2 with your turntable, is that correct? If so, although I have no direct experience with that cart, it appears to be a high output moving coil cartridge which can be utilized vis-a-vis a phono preamp as if it were a moving magnet cart. In other words, even though it is a moving coil cartridge, it has a higher output and can be used with a typical MM phono preamp, without the need for an additional step up. That cart has the reputation of being a very nice cart. We always have budgets, but you might consider pushing your budget here - (save until you have a couple hundred more bucks or sell some other gear, etc). I've heard quite a few "budget" external phono preamps, and it would be ill-advised IMHO to mate a fine cartridge like that with a phono stage that is of a lesser caliber. There are some good ones out there, and one that comes to mind is a used PS Audio GCPH, which has a dial on the back which accommodates various settings for adjustment of your cartridge's gain and load, should you wish to try to "tune in" your cart, or should you get additional cartridges in the future. Some of the Polkies I know have the GCPH phono stage and I've heard it. It is a very flexible piece of kit that has other advantages as well. That is not to say there are not other phono stages equally as desirable but that's one that comes to mind for your gear, which you got a very good deal on by the way. I would think you could find a used one shy of five hundy. I would think that would be a phono pre you could live with for a good long time. Just a suggestion. Maybe some other GCPH owners will chime in.

dr1978

Thanks for the suggestions Clip & Skip. I have the CP1 bookmarked as a possibility, and I'll look into the iFi Phono.

Point well taken, dromunds. I am very appreciative of the deal I got and agree it would be a shame to "waste" it with an inferior preamp. And yes, it is the Sumiko that you mentioned, and of course the one bit of research that I did was (technically but not functionally) incorrect. We'll see though. It's going to be difficult to put more than $300 more into this, even if I wait a while.

maxward

You might also consider the Lounge LCR Mk3 for your upper limit of $300. I have not heard one but it, too has gotten favorable reviews. No gain or loading adjustments, but your Blue Point will work well.

mhardy6647

stumbled across this link Someplace Else -- might be of interest to the OP, no warranty express or implied, though

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/lounge-lcr-mkiii-vs-parks-audio-budgie-tube-preamps.729467/

mhardy6647

There absolutely are good-sounding inexpensive phono preamps; the OP shouldn't think otherwise, IMO

maxward

Agreed, @mhardy6647. Especially if the OP is considering used. Lots of good information in that thread from elsewhere. I’d like to hear both of those preamps.

dromunds

There was a run on the Budgies a couple years ago around here as I recall, universally well-regarded IIRC. Another good one to watch for is the Dynavector P-75, that one can also be adjusted by changing resistors internally and won't break the bank, real nice sounding. There are lots of good budget phono pre's. As mentioned previously in another thread I think, the Vista Audio Phono 2 is good bang for the buck, as is the Parasound zphono. However there are also some I've heard that I didn't think much of - at all. Hence, the suggestion to give it thought.

voltz

I have the same TT and Cartridge and I use to use a Vincent PHO-8 but then I upgraded it to the PHO-700

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VIPHO8

The Cartridge is a High MC and it suggest using a MM setting on the phone amp and it work the best...to much noise with the MC setting...but I had to turn up the volume more...closer to 12 o'clock then I liked but it sounded just fine...

I then add a SUT (Set up Transformer) and now it sounds better and It gets loud around 9 clock .

from a suggestion from Rich and I know am using the Lounge audio Copla

http://www.loungeaudio.com/copla

dr1978

Thanks a lot, fellas.

jdjohn

I've got experience with a few of the ones mentioned. The Schiit Mani 'sounded' good for me, but I had FM RFI issues with it due to a transmitter being about 3 miles from my house. FM RFI is a known issue with the Manis, and sadly Schiit offers no remedy. People without the issue seem to really like them. You can check here http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 to determine if you might have an issue. Just type in your zip code (or your whole addy if you want), and look at the results. The 'Rx(dBm)' column shows the signal strength (in negative numbers), and smaller numbers indicate a stronger signal - they are sorted strongest to weakest. I would say if you have a signal approaching single digits (-10 or smaller), it might interfere with a Mani. I have a signal at -6.5 where I live, so yeah, I had RFI.

I have a Dynavector P75MkII, and can highly recommend those. You might find a used one in your price range if patient.

No one has mentioned Pro-Ject yet, so I'll throw it out there for consideration. They have several models to choose from at different price points. The PhonoBox DS might be a good option; it has lots of different settings available for gain and loading.

mhardy6647

jdjohn wrote: »

I've got experience with a few of the ones mentioned. The Schiit Mani 'sounded' good for me, but I had FM RFI issues with it due to a transmitter being about 3 miles from my house. FM RFI is a known issue with the Manis, and sadly Schiit offers no remedy. People without the issue seem to really like them. You can check here http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 to determine if you might have an issue. Just type in your zip code (or your whole addy if you want), and look at the results. The 'Rx(dBm)' column shows the signal strength (in negative numbers), and smaller numbers indicate a stronger signal - they are sorted strongest to weakest. I would say if you have a signal approaching single digits (-10 or smaller), it might interfere with a Mani. I have a signal at -6.5 where I live, so yeah, I had RFI.

I have a Dynavector P75MkII, and can highly recommend those. You might find a used one in your price range if patient.

No one has mentioned Pro-Ject yet, so I'll throw it out there for consideration. They have several models to choose from at different price points. The PhonoBox DS might be a good option; it has lots of different settings available for gain and loading.

I don't follow this Schiit closely so I wasn't aware of that particular RFI issue. Out of curiosity, what is the audible result of the FM interference? I cannot guess a priori what it would sound like.

Just curious.

DaveHo

Once I get the Vista Phono 2 from Kerry, my Cambridge 640P will be up for sale. It will be hard to beat for the price I'd sell for, but I think the table & cart you are getting deserve better. PM me if interested.

jdjohn

mhardy6647 wrote: »

jdjohn wrote: »

I've got experience with a few of the ones mentioned. The Schiit Mani 'sounded' good for me, but I had FM RFI issues with it due to a transmitter being about 3 miles from my house. FM RFI is a known issue with the Manis, and sadly Schiit offers no remedy. People without the issue seem to really like them. You can check here http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 to determine if you might have an issue. Just type in your zip code (or your whole addy if you want), and look at the results. The 'Rx(dBm)' column shows the signal strength (in negative numbers), and smaller numbers indicate a stronger signal - they are sorted strongest to weakest. I would say if you have a signal approaching single digits (-10 or smaller), it might interfere with a Mani. I have a signal at -6.5 where I live, so yeah, I had RFI.

I don't follow this Schiit closely so I wasn't aware of that particular RFI issue. Out of curiosity, what is the audible result of the FM interference? I cannot guess a priori what it would sound like.

Just curious.

It's literally hearing the FM station play in the background. It is at a low level, but discernible during quiet passages on the vinyl, and naturally between tracks, beginning of record, etc.

When I first heard it, I detected a slight static hiss, but could also hear voices. I checked to make sure I took my meds that day ... all good. Then I turned it up to get a better idea of the song, commercial, whatever was playing, and flipped to an FM tuner to find the culprit. Mix 92.9FM was the offender, and sure enough, their transmitter is about 3-4 miles away as the crow flies.

One would think it must be the interconnects acting as an antenna, so I just need better-shielded cables. Not much joy trying that. I looped my cables through ferrite chokes, and also the power cord. The RFI was reduced using the chokes, but not eliminated. Further research implied that the shielding issue was within the pre-amp itself. The wallwart PS provides 16VAC (yep, AC) to the unit, so I think that design may contribute to the RFI. I contacted Schiit customer service via email, but no response. I gave up at that point...not worth the effort when I had other perfectly good, quiet pre-amps at my disposal.

I sold the piece of Schiit to someone on the VE forum, but warned them about my experience. I can't remember right now for sure, but I *think* he had used one in the past without an issue, so he was good-to-go.

Clipdat

Wow, lame customer service.

jdjohn wrote: »

I contacted Schiit customer service via email, but no response.

dr1978

jdjohn wrote: »

I've got experience with a few of the ones mentioned. The Schiit Mani 'sounded' good for me, but I had FM RFI issues with it due to a transmitter being about 3 miles from my house. FM RFI is a known issue with the Manis, and sadly Schiit offers no remedy. People without the issue seem to really like them. You can check here http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 to determine if you might have an issue. Just type in your zip code (or your whole addy if you want), and look at the results. The 'Rx(dBm)' column shows the signal strength (in negative numbers), and smaller numbers indicate a stronger signal - they are sorted strongest to weakest. I would say if you have a signal approaching single digits (-10 or smaller), it might interfere with a Mani. I have a signal at -6.5 where I live, so yeah, I had RFI.

I have a Dynavector P75MkII, and can highly recommend those. You might find a used one in your price range if patient.

No one has mentioned Pro-Ject yet, so I'll throw it out there for consideration. They have several models to choose from at different price points. The PhonoBox DS might be a good option; it has lots of different settings available for gain and loading.

Thanks for the info! I am considering taking the Schiit, so this is good to know. Looks like I have a station at -14.5. Borderline?

I have been looking at some of the Pro-Ject's and meant to ask about them. All things being equal I would favor staying with the same brand, but that would be last on my priority list. I haven't dug deep enough yet to determine what their reputation in the amplification area is.

I'm really going all out with this. I'm starting to build a spreadsheet with possible candidates showing price (new & used if possible), specs, recurring comments in reviews, and anecdotes from here and other sites. I'm a spreadsheet guy, I need to get everything down in front of me to really analyze something. It's kind of sad what passes as fun these days...

dr1978

DaveHo wrote: »

Once I get the Vista Phono 2 from Kerry, my Cambridge 640P will be up for sale. It will be hard to beat for the price I'd sell for, but I think the table & cart you are getting deserve better. PM me if interested.

Thanks for the heads up!

jdjohn

dr1978 wrote: »

jdjohn wrote: »

I've got experience with a few of the ones mentioned. The Schiit Mani 'sounded' good for me, but I had FM RFI issues with it due to a transmitter being about 3 miles from my house. FM RFI is a known issue with the Manis, and sadly Schiit offers no remedy. People without the issue seem to really like them. You can check here http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 to determine if you might have an issue. Just type in your zip code (or your whole addy if you want), and look at the results. The 'Rx(dBm)' column shows the signal strength (in negative numbers), and smaller numbers indicate a stronger signal - they are sorted strongest to weakest. I would say if you have a signal approaching single digits (-10 or smaller), it might interfere with a Mani. I have a signal at -6.5 where I live, so yeah, I had RFI.

I have a Dynavector P75MkII, and can highly recommend those. You might find a used one in your price range if patient.

No one has mentioned Pro-Ject yet, so I'll throw it out there for consideration. They have several models to choose from at different price points. The PhonoBox DS might be a good option; it has lots of different settings available for gain and loading.

Thanks for the info! I am considering taking the Schiit, so this is good to know. Looks like I have a station at -14.5. Borderline?

I have been looking at some of the Pro-Ject's and meant to ask about them. All things being equal I would favor staying with the same brand, but that would be last on my priority list. I haven't dug deep enough yet to determine what their reputation in the amplification area is.

I'm really going all out with this. I'm starting to build a spreadsheet with possible candidates showing price (new & used if possible), specs, recurring comments in reviews, and anecdotes from here and other sites. I'm a spreadsheet guy, I need to get everything down in front of me to really analyze something. It's kind of sad what passes as fun these days...

Hard to know if -14.5 would cause a problem or not with the Mani. If you buy new directly from Schiit, you could always return it.

I have a Pro-Ject PhonoBox DS+, and have enjoyed it quite a bit. The Dynavector P75 displaced it, but I cycle them in-and-out. The DS+ has an LED display, which adds about another $100 compared to the regular DS. I've done a lot of experimenting with different cartridges, so having the display was important to me. If you don't want/need the display, the regular DS would be the more cost-effective option.

Someone mentioned the ART DJPre-II earlier. It was a gateway pre-amp for me, and STILL amazes me for the price. You could just start with one of these while you keep researching/looking/waiting for something better, and then keep the ART as a backup. Lots of vinyl guys do that.

dr1978

jdjohn wrote: »

...

Someone mentioned the ART DJPre-II earlier. It was a gateway pre-amp for me, and STILL amazes me for the price. You could just start with one of these while you keep researching/looking/waiting for something better, and then keep the ART as a backup. Lots of vinyl guys do that.

That's one of the options I was considering based on mhardy's comment, good to know that you've used it and are happy with it.

Clipdat

The fact that the ART has it's own input gain knob is a turn-off to me.

jdjohn

Clipdat wrote: »

The fact that the ART has it's own input gain knob is a turn-off to me.

Shouldn't be. Even MM carts vary in output, so you can adjust accordingly (up OR down) to a level just below clipping. I know preamp gain is usually handled via dip switches or jumpers, but normally only two gain options are available in the majority of preamps. With the knob, there are literally an infinite number of gain settings - okay, well there's a min and max, but in-between lots of steps available. Plus, it has two capacitance load settings to choose from. But hey, no one is saying the ART is the best money can buy. It's just a great entry-level preamp for the price.

My only beef with the ART is the obnoxious blue power light ...and the purple-on-black stenciling on the back - hard to read.

Clipdat

Yeah, I am familiar with the premise of an input gain or trim knob on a phono source, as this is basically what every DJ mixer I've ever had uses.

I just mean that for HiFi use, I'd prefer a "set it and forget it" type preamp that I can just plug in, apply power to, set MC or MM, and never touch it again. Then I'd just handle "gain" on the linestage preamp.

jdjohn wrote: »

Clipdat wrote: »

The fact that the ART has it's own input gain knob is a turn-off to me.

Shouldn't be. Even MM carts vary in output, so you can adjust accordingly (up OR down) to a level just below clipping. I know preamp gain is usually handled via dip switches or jumpers, but normally only two gain options are available in the majority of preamps. With the knob, there are literally an infinite number of gain settings - okay, well there's a min and max, but in-between lots of steps available. Plus, it has two capacitance load settings to choose from. But hey, no one is saying the ART is the best money can buy. It's just a great entry-level preamp for the price.

My only beef with the ART is the obnoxious blue power light ...and the purple-on-black stenciling on the back - hard to read.

SCompRacer

FWIW, I've heard impressive results from the Music Hall PA 1.2 phono pre. IIRC it's in the buck fifty range. A friend has one. He upgraded his turntable with one purchased from me and it sounded good.

We first tried it with my table and his cartridge and then an upgraded cartridge. It made the improvements known.