RD-0194 rattles
VSAT88
Posts: 1,257
Hi yall. I have had several RD-0194 tweeters I ordered in the last few months that play fine but rattle at a certain frequency. It can be heard quite well when the piano is being played in classical music like Beethoven. I know the obvious answer is to not play Beethoven but I cannot seem to help myself. Seriously, has anyone else ran into this ? Is there a fix ? I am not the only one who mentioned this after I brought it up. xschopp had this to say,
"I posted a reply somewhere here, and another member confirmed my suspicions that the factory RD0194 plastic faceplates have a design flaw at the 4 baffle mount hole interfaces. They are too shallow and can be remedied by adding washers to make up for the difference in seating depth. This will prevent the plastic faceplate from distorting while torquing down to baffle." in this thread .http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/168239/a-real-sl-2000-hack-replace-stock-burnt-voice-coils-with-silk-diaphragm-dome/p7
If this is so I wonder what washers to use ? Where should I put them ? would this take the tweeter out of factory spec in some way ??
"I posted a reply somewhere here, and another member confirmed my suspicions that the factory RD0194 plastic faceplates have a design flaw at the 4 baffle mount hole interfaces. They are too shallow and can be remedied by adding washers to make up for the difference in seating depth. This will prevent the plastic faceplate from distorting while torquing down to baffle." in this thread .http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/168239/a-real-sl-2000-hack-replace-stock-burnt-voice-coils-with-silk-diaphragm-dome/p7
If this is so I wonder what washers to use ? Where should I put them ? would this take the tweeter out of factory spec in some way ??
Comments
-
#10 stainless steel washers, one at each corner.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Does this apply to the RD0198's also? The plastic surrounding the mount screw holes is shallower that the perimeter of the faceplate.
I'm "TL-ing" a pair of M5jr+ that had SL-2000's as stock. After a lengthy burn-in of the new XO's and 198's they still seemed way too bright. I tried substituting old SL-2500's and they had the same problem. I reverted one of them to the stock XO and SL-2000 and did a side-by-side. Sure enough, the stock speaker had MUCH better bass/treble balance.
Finally, I noticed both the SL-2500's and the RD0198's weren't seating the same as the SL-2000 and figured it must be an air leakage problem killing the bass. I took out the stock tweeter gasket and cut two pieces of Armaflex to shape and stuck them to the back of the SL-2500's. I couldn't believe what a crazy huge difference that made. The SL-2500's almost sound too muffled in them now.
I was going to try the same trick with the RD0198's but glad I read this first. It sounds like maybe I should try washers and the stock gaskets with the 198's? I didn't realize the tweeter faceplate actually contributed to the sound of the tweeter. -
plastic bezel flexes more and pulls at the voice coil is my understanding.
-
plastic bezel flexes more and pulls at the voice coil is my understanding.
Interesting... since Armaflex starts out thick I did notice the bezel flexing a bit at mount points as I was tightening it down. I went fairly slow, though not as slow as when Armaflexing MW's (usually do that over a couple of days). Could be that the Armaflex is still settling (this was just over the weekend).
I guess I'll give the current setup some time and see how the sound evolves, then get some washers for the 198's to see if that does the job without getting them all sticky. -
Is this happening on all the RDO series? Not sure why but I haven't noticed any of these symptoms though I was careful to tighten them down incrementally. Are you installing these washers, between the cab and faceplate?Gustard X26 Pro DAC
Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)
There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus -
I've used the RD0194's and 198's before in 2B's and subsequent 2BTL builds (have some in 2BTL's currently). I never noticed it before, but then there's really no comparison between the 2B bass and M5jr bass, so not sure if I would have noticed a little extra brightness or subtle rattle in the upper mid range on the bigger speakers. I could see very slight differences in the tweeter cutout and condition of the gasket making a difference too. In the M5jr, the SL-2000 seems to fit entirely within the tweeter cutout and sit flush on the raw MDF of the baffle. In my case both the SL-2500 and the RD0198 seem to leave just a little lip of plastic riding on top of the surface of the baffle. Plus, the stock gaskets were not minty. Also, I use different mounting hardware depending on the tweeter. SL-2000's get a round or pan head screw that is flat on the underside of the screw head. SL-2500 / RD0198 use an oval or flat head screw that tapers in a V between the head and threads.
Good question about where the washers go... I was going to try tweeter, washers, gasket, cabinet. -
The new tweeters bezel is a softer thinner plastic. The washer goes behind the bezel to take up the space of the thinner bezel and not allow the bezel to be pulled to the cabinet.
I'm sure it make no difference but I myself would put the washer next to the cabinet gasket on top of it.
The older tweeters you could torque down pretty good and didn't run into this problem. thicker bezel, stiffer plastic.... -
So, I want to make sure I am reading this right. #10 stainless washers on the cab, then the gasket then the tweeter at the holes marked in red, right ? Lead on Pitt , Jess.
-
I think the purpose of the washer would be to make that little rise at the screw hole flush with the outer edge of the tweeter. Then, both surfaces, meaning the washer and the outer edge of the tweeter, would meet the gasket evenly.
So, you would have: 1) tweeter 2) washer 3) gasket 4) cabinet
Although it would likely be possible to put the washer against the cabinet, it seems that application might be more prone to air-leakage as the gasket wouldn't be as flat.
**** it. Just cram the whole shebang full of Mortite.
-
A proper thread title would be RD-0194 RESONATES....The new tweeters bezel is a softer thinner plastic. The washer goes behind the bezel to take up the space of the thinner bezel and not allow the bezel to be pulled to the cabinet.
I'm sure it make no difference but I myself would put the washer next to the cabinet gasket on top of it.
The older tweeters you could torque down pretty good and didn't run into this problem. thicker bezel, stiffer plastic....
Even after the 4 corner shims I would still get a rattle/resonance, yet less often, in those frequences, that you are describing VSAT.
I put them away and went with another tweeter in my CRS+
Having dissected a pair 194's, I thought they could benefit from a very thin gasket material between the plastic coil housing and plastic bezel as well as some of your favorite butyl mat on the back-side of the thin plastic bezel frame. If the newer cheaper plastic bezels are of a lower molecular weight plastic, then indeed they would resonate more. I find it interesting that the TL mod attenuates/contours the 198's @5-6khz zone that corresponds to the 194's "rattle".
Don't take experimental gene therapies from known eugenicists. -
Check for snakes....might have a diamond back in there.....
-
Thanks @VSAT88 for bringing this up. I have not installed my new tweets yet, but will certainly use your learnings! #10 washer it is! And yes, shout out to @F1nut also!Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD. -
So, I want to make sure I am reading this right. #10 stainless washers on the cab, then the gasket then the tweeter at the holes marked in red, right ? Lead on Pitt , Jess.
Bingo
Epoxy them in place, makes life easier.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
A proper thread title would be RD-0194 RESONATES....The new tweeters bezel is a softer thinner plastic. The washer goes behind the bezel to take up the space of the thinner bezel and not allow the bezel to be pulled to the cabinet.
I'm sure it make no difference but I myself would put the washer next to the cabinet gasket on top of it.
The older tweeters you could torque down pretty good and didn't run into this problem. thicker bezel, stiffer plastic....
Even after the 4 corner shims I would still get a rattle/resonance, yet less often, in those frequences, that you are describing VSAT.
I put them away and went with another tweeter in my CRS+
Having dissected a pair 194's, I thought they could benefit from a very thin gasket material between the plastic coil housing and plastic bezel as well as some of your favorite butyl mat on the back-side of the thin plastic bezel frame. If the newer cheaper plastic bezels are of a lower molecular weight plastic, then indeed they would resonate more. I find it interesting that the TL mod attenuates/contours the 198's @5-6khz zone that corresponds to the 194's "rattle".
"The plot thickens". Now that I read these posts I recall that
I have also had trouble with the plastic breaking on the diaphragm where the terminal is. I thought I was simply being heavy handed however with more looking at the RD and with checking out the SL tweeter closely it seems not. There is nothing behind that part of the plastic on the RD-0194 it kind of hangs there in space with the only support being the plastic itself. After a break I started placing something between the terminal and the bezel to keep this from happening again. I am beginning to wonder. I have called Polk tech support and they have sent me out two replacements in the past. One due to a rattle, one due to the plastic on the terminal breaking. Now I am wondering what all I am going to need to do to continue to use these tweeters. I like the sound but from what I am gathering the build quality especially for Polk Audio standards is not up to par. -
I had a similar issue with a RDO-198 one of the terminals easily snapped off. Some super goo fixed it, but in my opinion they seem cheaply made.Yamaha RXA1030, Yamaha CD-S2100, Yamaha AS-2200, Bluesound node 2i
Polk SDA2btl highly modded
Polk SDA 1C modded
Polk CS350 LS x2
Kimber 8TC
Sony 55" Bravia
Wish list SVS sub -
I find it interesting that the TL mod attenuates/contours the 198's @5-6khz zone that corresponds to the 194's "rattle".
In some applications it does... in the M5jr's I've definitely heard the "rattle" probably at about that frequency and an overall increase in brightness that makes the whole speaker sound unbalanced in favor of the treble end with the 198's. I'm kind of an unreliable witness as I haven't been able to get as scientific about this as others. But, my experience is definitely consistent with the symptoms described.
Maybe the M5jr does the contour differently? Unless I messed up interpreting the schematics and parts lists, the only difference between the SL-2000 M5jr and the SL-2500 version is the deletion of the polyswitch and the bump from a 12uF to a 13.5uF cap in the tweeter section. Seems different from how the bigger speakers approach the shift to TL-class tweeters.
Anyway, I'm glad I'm not the only person to have experienced something like this.
BTW, what everyone's "favorite butyl mat"? Is that Dynamat? I was afraid I was making a mistake putting Armaflex on the back of the bezel. Now we're gonna Dynamat tweeters too? I love this rodeo!
-
On3s&Z3r0s wrote: »I find it interesting that the TL mod attenuates/contours the 198's @5-6khz zone that corresponds to the 194's "rattle".
In some applications it does... in the M5jr's I've definitely heard the "rattle" probably at about that frequency and an overall increase in brightness that makes the whole speaker sound unbalanced in favor of the treble end with the 198's. I'm kind of an unreliable witness as I haven't been able to get as scientific about this as others. But, my experience is definitely consistent with the symptoms described.
Maybe the M5jr does the contour differently? Unless I messed up interpreting the schematics and parts lists, the only difference between the SL-2000 M5jr and the SL-2500 version is the deletion of the polyswitch and the bump from a 12uF to a 13.5uF cap in the tweeter section. Seems different from how the bigger speakers approach the shift to TL-class tweeters.
Anyway, I'm glad I'm not the only person to have experienced something like this.
BTW, what everyone's "favorite butyl mat"? Is that Dynamat? I was afraid I was making a mistake putting Armaflex on the back of the bezel. Now we're gonna Dynamat tweeters too? I love this rodeo!
LOL ! -
Does the same exact thing after putting in the stainless steel # 10 washers. No change.
-
Does the same exact thing after putting in the stainless steel # 10 washers. No change.
hmmm interesting maybe i'm not so quick to jump on the 198's.... -
What tweeters are you using now pit ?
-
SL3000
-
Check that. I have never heard SL3000's. Can't comment. RD-0194 and the SL 2500 I have heard plenty. I think I like the RD tweeters better overall but I have had trouble more than once with them as stated before. I put in a brand new RD 0194 just now and I do not hear the same sound from that speaker. The new tweeter without any "mods" is doing well now.
-
I would still put the washers under it just to be sure you're not pulling it down at the corners.
-
I think this is the problem. The alignment is off and causing the VC to scrape the magnet. The images are not the best. I used some magnification but still not so hot. Notice the green extra glue in the area to the bottom right. I think that hits something and is causing the VC former to hit something else.
-
I would still put the washers under it just to be sure you're not pulling it down at the corners.
Done.
-
**** it. Just cram the whole shebang full of Mortite.
Because you know I've already considered that...Gustard X26 Pro DAC
Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)
There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus -
Went looking and found the other thread that mentions the washers also so figured I'd link to it here... forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/178997/new-rd0-198-do-not-seat-right
-
The issue it seems is with the latest batch of RD0194's as I have not seen it mentioned until recently. I don't recall anyone having the issue with the RD0198's.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
The issue it seems is with the latest batch of RD0194's as I have not seen it mentioned until recently. I don't recall anyone having the issue with the RD0198's.
thanks Jesse -
On3s&Z3r0s wrote: »Went looking and found the other thread that mentions the washers also so figured I'd link to it here... forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/178997/new-rd0-198-do-not-seat-right
No kidding. I kind of wish I had seen that thread first. That thread was after all the SL 2500 hack thread. Got it now. I am no longer having the problem however the washers we're not what fixed mine. Replaced with another RDO 194, a new one. That is the only way I could fix it. I suppose the other new one I had in there was just bad.
