Need new central heat/AC

2

Comments

  • rpf65
    rpf65 Posts: 2,127
    You want to call a reputable contractor, and have them do a comprehensive survey. This will include checking to see if your equipment is sized correctly, enough insulation, duct work, and air infiltration.

    Basically somebody needs to get eyes on your home to find out what's really going on. Usually these surveys cost the home owner nothing.
  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,707
    rpf65 wrote: »
    Friend of mine bought a house about 4 years ago. Went over check her system before she bought it. Coleman heat pump. In this area, heat pumps actually work.

    Anyway I told her to keep her home warranty, it would be worth it for the A/C repairs alone. She listened and so far has had to replace the evaporator coil, and today her outdoor metering device went out.

    She would have spent about $2500 on both of those repairs, and her system is only 6 years old. I wouldn't recommend Coleman.

    Heating side of a system has absolutely nothing to do with the SEER rating. It is strictly a rating for the cooling side of the system.

    If you replaced a system that was 28'years old it was probably around 8 SEER rating, and 14 SEER would be about 40 percent more efficient. Incidently, 14 SEER is about the lowest efficiency system one can buy. Unfortunately, that is also about the average of residential package units.

    Not a big demand for residential package units out there, so not a lot of research and developement goes into them. So forget about things like de-humidifiication control, just not available, except when the thermostat over cools for a couple of days.

    SEER ratings, to me aren't that much of a big deal either. Rheem/Ruud gets an extra half SEER by not energizing the reversing valve in cooling mode on their heat pumps.

    Don't think there are many, if ant residential package units that hit 16 SEER out there, so your looking for long lasting equipment. In my experience it's still Rheem/Ruud. Second would probably by Carrier/Bryant. I have seen quite a few of Carriers Payne line of residential package units in the 18 plus year range, still running.

    The company I work for wont install York, Coleman, Goodman, Amana, or Daiken in residential applications. We do quite a bit of warranty work on them, and that's probably the reason.

    You need to understand your profession better and also figure out how to use the quote button.

    "SEER ratings, the Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio is a metric used to measure how much cooling a system puts out for each unit of energy it consumes. In theory, the higher the SEER rating, the more efficiently the air conditioner operates."

    It has little to do with how efficient the AC unit is at cooling. It has everything to do with how efficient it is with the power it consumes. A higher rating is good but after about a 16 SEER rating, you are seeing diminishing returns in exponential values for your average 2-2.5 ton residential unit. It also depends on the size of the unit you have. I have seen very, very few 2-ton units get above 16 SEER because they are small and they usually have a smaller space to cool but still have parts that consume electricity at similar rates to the larger units. The difference is, a 3 ton unit will cool a much larger area at roughly the same power consumption.

    It also depends greatly on your location. Southern Texas, a 3-ton unit with a 21 SEER rating may be what would be in order for a 1500 square foot house because of the temperature differences and frequency of use. In Southern NJ, a 1500 square foot house would be wasting money and energy with a 3-ton 21 SEER unit because it'd be way too big for the needs of a house that uses the AC maybe 4 months out of the year. So, honestly, to compare units used in dissimilar climates is literally, apples to oranges.

    But with your duty cycles the way they get set on the high efficiency systems now, if your unit is sized too large it will not operate correctly, you will likely burn your equipment out sooner and your cooling efficiency goes out the window. The design is that they gradually cool to a set point and then maintain it with more frequent duty cycles instead of operating like a refrigeration unit, coming on and blasting the temperature down to the set point as fast as possible and then shutting down or just running constantly if it's too hot. If you have an improperly sized unit for your house, having a newer HE unit operating like that because it's too big, it will break down more often.

    The reason my unit gets the bump on the SEER rating is because the heater (not a heat pump) is designed to work with the AC unit and they share the blower assembly, ducting and condensate pump from the heater. Because of that, together they get a bump in SEER rating because they share the same blower assembly and condensate pump. That means the AC uses less electricity overall to do the same job because it doesn't need it's own blower and condensate pump. Is it cheating a bit for the SEER rating? Maybe. But if the blower and condensate pump came with the heater and not the AC unit then the AC unit isn't factoring them into the SEER rating.

    Like I said before, I've researched this and asked many questions. I am not an uninformed buyer.

    But, since nobody listens to me, here, listen to this guy, he's a pro too and seems to be an honest one. In fact, @BlueFox if you live within this company's service area, use him.

    https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/what-is-a-good-seer-rating/

    As for your other claims, I don't know what the previous SEER rating was, I don't care. I wasn't comparing. I think the SEER ratings are a load of baloney but that's how everyone sells them because, like you, they don't understand what they mean.

    I can't comment on heat pumps. I don't have one, never used one, I only know that they are useless here in the northern end of the Mid-Atlantic states but given everyone else's stories I've heard, no heat pump is worth your time, from any company for any climate.

    I also can't comment on your company's experience with warranty work but if they understand SEER ratings the way you do then I can see why they are burning out units faster than everyone else.

    But, hey, you're the pro that I just had to explain SEER ratings to so I'll defer to your expertise.
    Expert Moron Extraordinaire

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  • gmcman
    gmcman Posts: 1,739
    Your home will tend to begin to lose to the ambient cold air around the magical 30 deg mark. This is where the better windows and added insulation helps you the most.

    If you're inside is 62 deg then you either have massive air leaks or a very troubled hvac unit..or both.

    The newer variable speed heat pumps do save alot of energy, but at the risk of more parts to likely fail.

    The Bryant Evolution/ Carrier Infinity......prob a few others, or maybe all the R410 systems, not sure have higher heat output on the coils alone.

    I'll check this weekend but its roughly 95 deg or more heat output on coils alone.
  • Airplay355
    Airplay355 Posts: 4,298
    This is my first house so I have very little experience with hvac. I grew up in New England and everything was oil furnaces. Here in SC everyone has heat pumps. I had the thermostat set at 65 and it was 62 inside. I dropped it to 62 so that it wouldn’t run constantly. That calmed things down a bit but 62 is pretty cold for winter haha.

    I think I have a combination of both, air leaks and problems. The units are HEIL, whatever the heil that means. Those are the parts outside which I assume do the heating and cooling. There are two, a smaller one for upstairs. The upstairs one doesn’t suck like the lager downstairs one, but it has a lot less space to heat. The upstairs one has a thermostat with an emergency heat function(which I don’t use) and the downstairs one does not. I’m not sure if that means the downstairs has no electric back up to assist the heat pump when it’s too cold to function properly.

    The air coming out is no where 120 degrees. I’d say it’s closer to 85-90 at best. Maybe lower when it’s very cold out.

  • rpf65
    rpf65 Posts: 2,127
    The emergency heat will run the heat strips, and not turn on the heart pump. Think of heating with a giant toaster. Heat strips are also used to help heat in extreme cold, and when the condenser goes into defrost mode.

    Heat pumps are designed to heat the incoming air up between about 25 and 50 degrees. The warmer it is outside, the higher it will heat.
  • rpf65
    rpf65 Posts: 2,127
    Jstas wrote: »
    rpf65 wrote: »
    Friend of mine bought a house about 4 years ago. Went over check her system before she bought it. Coleman heat pump. In this area, heat pumps actually work.

    Anyway I told her to keep her home warranty, it would be worth it for the A/C repairs alone. She listened and so far has had to replace the evaporator coil, and today her outdoor metering device went out.

    She would have spent about $2500 on both of those repairs, and her system is only 6 years old. I wouldn't recommend Coleman.

    Heating side of a system has absolutely nothing to do with the SEER rating. It is strictly a rating for the cooling side of the system.

    If you replaced a system that was 28'years old it was probably around 8 SEER rating, and 14 SEER would be about 40 percent more efficient. Incidently, 14 SEER is about the lowest efficiency system one can buy. Unfortunately, that is also about the average of residential package units.

    Not a big demand for residential package units out there, so not a lot of research and developement goes into them. So forget about things like de-humidifiication control, just not available, except when the thermostat over cools for a couple of days.

    SEER ratings, to me aren't that much of a big deal either. Rheem/Ruud gets an extra half SEER by not energizing the reversing valve in cooling mode on their heat pumps.

    Don't think there are many, if ant residential package units that hit 16 SEER out there, so your looking for long lasting equipment. In my experience it's still Rheem/Ruud. Second would probably by Carrier/Bryant. I have seen quite a few of Carriers Payne line of residential package units in the 18 plus year range, still running.

    The company I work for wont install York, Coleman, Goodman, Amana, or Daiken in residential applications. We do quite a bit of warranty work on them, and that's probably the reason.

    You need to understand your profession better and also figure out how to use the quote button.

    "SEER ratings, the Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio is a metric used to measure how much cooling a system puts out for each unit of energy it consumes. In theory, the higher the SEER rating, the more efficiently the air conditioner operates."

    It has little to do with how efficient the AC unit is at cooling. It has everything to do with how efficient it is with the power it consumes. A higher rating is good but after about a 16 SEER rating, you are seeing diminishing returns in exponential values for your average 2-2.5 ton residential unit. It also depends on the size of the unit you have. I have seen very, very few 2-ton units get above 16 SEER because they are small and they usually have a smaller space to cool but still have parts that consume electricity at similar rates to the larger units. The difference is, a 3 ton unit will cool a much larger area at roughly the same power consumption.

    It also depends greatly on your location. Southern Texas, a 3-ton unit with a 21 SEER rating may be what would be in order for a 1500 square foot house because of the temperature differences and frequency of use. In Southern NJ, a 1500 square foot house would be wasting money and energy with a 3-ton 21 SEER unit because it'd be way too big for the needs of a house that uses the AC maybe 4 months out of the year. So, honestly, to compare units used in dissimilar climates is literally, apples to oranges.

    But with your duty cycles the way they get set on the high efficiency systems now, if your unit is sized too large it will not operate correctly, you will likely burn your equipment out sooner and your cooling efficiency goes out the window. The design is that they gradually cool to a set point and then maintain it with more frequent duty cycles instead of operating like a refrigeration unit, coming on and blasting the temperature down to the set point as fast as possible and then shutting down or just running constantly if it's too hot. If you have an improperly sized unit for your house, having a newer HE unit operating like that because it's too big, it will break down more often.

    The reason my unit gets the bump on the SEER rating is because the heater (not a heat pump) is designed to work with the AC unit and they share the blower assembly, ducting and condensate pump from the heater. Because of that, together they get a bump in SEER rating because they share the same blower assembly and condensate pump. That means the AC uses less electricity overall to do the same job because it doesn't need it's own blower and condensate pump. Is it cheating a bit for the SEER rating? Maybe. But if the blower and condensate pump came with the heater and not the AC unit then the AC unit isn't factoring them into the SEER rating.

    Like I said before, I've researched this and asked many questions. I am not an uninformed buyer.

    But, since nobody listens to me, here, listen to this guy, he's a pro too and seems to be an honest one. In fact, @BlueFox if you live within this company's service area, use him.

    https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/what-is-a-good-seer-rating/

    As for your other claims, I don't know what the previous SEER rating was, I don't care. I wasn't comparing. I think the SEER ratings are a load of baloney but that's how everyone sells them because, like you, they don't understand what they mean.

    I can't comment on heat pumps. I don't have one, never used one, I only know that they are useless here in the northern end of the Mid-Atlantic states but given everyone else's stories I've heard, no heat pump is worth your time, from any company for any climate.

    I also can't comment on your company's experience with warranty work but if they understand SEER ratings the way you do then I can see why they are burning out units faster than everyone else.

    But, hey, you're the pro that I just had to explain SEER ratings to so I'll defer to your expertise.

    First thing first, I do know my job enough to know that you have extremely limited knowledge of this particular subject. I

    I really could care less if you believe me or not, but your gas furnace will not raise the SEER rating. A condenser rated at 16 SEER can not be more efficient than 16 SEER no matter how highly efficient you think the fan in your furnace may be. Not using a manufacturer's matched and tested systems may slightly lower the SEER rating, and that means a contractor can not garauntee the efficiency of the system.

    You may have put a lot of time into research, but if you don't comprehend what the research is trying to convey, it's more a waste of your time, than it was anything else.

    I'll state flat out, the reason nobody listens to anything you say, at least HVAC related, is because you haven't got a clue about the subject.

  • Airplay355
    Airplay355 Posts: 4,298
    So if 25-50 degrees warmer is the best I can hope for, would it be normal to only achieve low 60s temps when it’s 15-20 outside?
  • rpf65
    rpf65 Posts: 2,127
    The balance point, this is where a heat pump can only maintain the indoor temperature, usually is around 20'degrees. This is one reason electric supplemental heat, heat strips are installed.

    You may want to try running your system in emergency heat mode. This will only engage your heat strips. Occasionally this will work, but usually is a signal that there may be other issues.

    Heat pumps in the area I live have been struggling to keep up, we're experiencing our once every 5 years or so cold snaps. The ones I've looked at had some issue that prevented them from operating as they were designed.

    The answer is no. If your heat pump is properly sized, properly installed, have no air leaks, and not excessive air infiltration in your home, your home should get above the 60's. I would recommend you get your system checked out by a reputable service company.
  • Airplay355
    Airplay355 Posts: 4,298
    Thanks! Unfortunately, the thermostat downstairs doesn’t have an emergency heat setting. Could that be my problem? The electric supplemental heat is never engaged?
  • rpf65
    rpf65 Posts: 2,127
    Could be a problem. Most thermostats that are heat pump, 2 or 3 stage heat comparable will have either an em or aux heat setting.
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Lots of good information coming out here. Thanks all. The funny part is I grew up with all this. My father and friends started their own heating/AC business back in VA, outside DC. While I did work for them one summer, and helped do installs I never really learned anything. Now that he is gone I can't ask him. Oh well, Polk members are also a good resource. :)

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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    edited January 2018
    Our house in MA was built in the early 1970s. The State of MA (in the 2000s) had a really generous grant program for energy audits and remediation. We took advantage of it, and had about $4k of work done on the house for an out of pocket cost to us of about $400.

    I mention this because, along with the obvious issues in leaky, drafty houses (windows, doors, insulation) - I learned about two things during that process (both obvious in retrospect) that I thought were worth mentioning.

    1) If you have attic "scuttles", insulate them. As a contractor friend of ours remarked -- if you have pull-down attic stairs, you have, essentially a window to the outdoors in your ceiling.

    In MA we had a nice cover for the attic stairs built out of foam board and held in place (above the stairs in the attic) by a couple of velcro straps. Simple and effective.
    For this house (even though the pull-down was nominally insulated), I just bought one of those Owens-Cornings "tents" to use. Either way is inexpensive & very effective.

    2) One of the things that the contractors did, based on the audit, was to seal the tops of the interior walls -- up in the attic. As the auditor put it, interior walls (which were typically, I think, uninsulated in older houses) are essentially chimneys, serving to pull warm air from the house up into the attic.

    For both of these: Besides the obvious heat loss in the living space -- in cold climes like this (New England), one
    does not want warm air in one's attic. This is the fundamental root cause of "ice dams" -- which can be a big problem (as anyone living in the Frozen White North knows).

    Just thought I'd mention these things. Apologies if everyone reading this thread already considered 'em :|
  • charley95
    charley95 Posts: 908
    I did a similar thing back in 11 on my 50's built ranch. Whole job was about 3k and ended up paying 600.Had no insulation in the walls, spray foamed box sills... Ended up cutting air infiltration by 51% after post air test. All in all, my utility bill was the highest the other day I had since insulating, $165. House is 1100 sq. ft. I won't complain! House feels much tighter since having everything insulated.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    edited January 2018
    We did put new windows in the MA house as well -- the original wood framed windows were (of course) not great. That's an understatement.

    We actually went with pretty inexpensive (vinyl) windows -- the woodwork in the house was almost all painted (all the window frames were) so the esthetics were... OK. The price was right, and the difference they made (both in terms of cost and in terms of "chilliness" in the house in the dead of winter) was dramatic.

    l8wi5tevg0ky.png
    FWIW, those windows were from Harvey: https://www.harveybp.com/ Not one of the big names, but popular in New England. I've been very happy with the stuff we had installed that was made by them; I think the price/performance ratio is excellent for their products.

    Our NH house supposedly has high-performance windows -- but (to be blunt), they inhale deeply (as we used to say in the late '70s). We will replace them in the fullness of time.

    Sorry for the digression.

  • warren
    warren Posts: 756
    Can't stop a Trane..
    Some final words,
    "If you keep banging your head against the wall,
    you're going to have headaches."
    Warren
  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,640
    warren wrote: »
    Can't stop a Trane..

    Agreed, mine has run non stop for 15 years...
  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,124
    warren wrote: »
    Can't stop a Trane..
    warren wrote: »
    Can't stop a Trane..

    Agreed, mine has run non stop for 15 years...

    Those are the Trane's of yesteryear, they are also the parent company of American Standard

    Trane was the Cadillac and A.S. was it's budget line was a great value. That has changed in the the last 5-8 years
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
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  • WagnerRC
    WagnerRC Posts: 2,138
    Is Rheem still the top choice for heat pump. I have quotes from Trane and American Standard and are not that impressed. Thanks for any updated tips for those who just updated. I appreciate it.
  • rpf65
    rpf65 Posts: 2,127
    Rheem makes good equipment, Depending on what people are looking for I usually recommend something made by Carrier or Rheem.

    Proper installation of any HVAC system is extremely important.
  • Bryant is my go to brand.
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    Other; M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage. All vintage Polk have had crossover rebuilds and tweeter upgrades.

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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Well, since this thread is resurrected, I still have the original AC/heater. For whatever reason, it still works. LOL. Other than needing the AC on Friday night during the summer (stereo on - lots of heat) this was a cool summer. I probably only used it a few other times. Still appreciate all the suggestions.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

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    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,124
    I feel used :'(
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
  • WagnerRC
    WagnerRC Posts: 2,138
    edited October 2018
    I have another guy coming out Wednesday that uses the Coleman line. The Coleman lime looks good.
  • WagnerRC
    WagnerRC Posts: 2,138
    I will check into the bryant line to. Thank you
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 27,970
    So, I will be in the market soon. In my day job, I can say Goodman is a no go and Lennox is a pain.

    In my personal house, I moved in back in 2009. The hvac tech told me I was most likely going to need a new system soon. Well, fast forward to 2018, I still have the same system, granted on its very last leg. I'd estimate it is 25 plus years old. It is a Rheem system and I most likely would go back with the same brand.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • rpf65
    rpf65 Posts: 2,127
    WagnerRC wrote: »
    I have another guy coming out Wednesday that uses the Coleman line. The Coleman lime looks good.

    I would strongly suggest you consider another brand.
  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,640
    WagnerRC wrote: »
    I have another guy coming out Wednesday that uses the Coleman line. The Coleman lime looks good.

    Not sure who your're having out but we've had good luck with Narrows.
  • WagnerRC
    WagnerRC Posts: 2,138
    Thanks ken. I have a quote from narrows for a trane system.

    Looking for a few other options

  • charley95
    charley95 Posts: 908
    rpf65 wrote: »
    WagnerRC wrote: »
    I have another guy coming out Wednesday that uses the Coleman line. The Coleman lime looks good.

    I would strongly suggest you consider another brand.

    Is the Coleman made by York?