Signature 60 vs. RTI A9
Audio_Nut_2017
Posts: 9
in Speakers
Question for everyone. I bought the Signature 60’s a few weeks back and have them set up in a 5.1 setup. I have them driven by an Yamaha Aventage A750 receiver, Def Tech 9040 center, Def Tech 9040 rears, and a Def Tech Pro Sub1000. I now see the RTI A9’s are on sale and am looking to exchange the 60’s for these? My only concern is that my receiver can’t handle the power. I do bi-amp but my receive is only 90 per channel? Any thoughts and help would be greatly appreciated! Newb to middle row audio. Thanks again all.
Comments
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You will need an amp for sure if you swap them.
The 9’s need at least 200 watts to wake up.
I would also work on getting a matching center either way you go.Main room- RTiA9 x4, CSiA6, in ceiling Atmos RT-70 x4, SVS PC 4000 x2, Marantz 8805A, OPPO 203, Emotiva DR3 G3, Emotiva XPA-2 G3, Emotiva XPA-5 G3, Emotiva X300, Sony 75" 940E, Panasonic Plasma VT50, PS Audio Power Port X2, PS Audio AC-5 x8, AQ Rocket 33 Biwire speaker cables, AQ King Cobra XLR IC, Furman PFi20 W/Cullen cable, SoildSteel S4-4 rack, Gik room treatments
Office- Legend L600, in ceiling Polk RC80i, Marantz 7704, OPPO 203, Pioneer Elite PDF-59 CD, PSA Stellar 300, Sony 55" 800B, Gik room treatment
Master BR- Signature ES60, Signature S35 Center, Signature S15 Dolby Height, LSI700 in ceiling, SVS-SB4000, Marantz 5012, Emotiva XPA5 G2, OPPO 203, Pioneer DVL-919 Laser Disc, Sony 55" OLED
Patio- SDI Atrium8 x3, Emotiva A-100 amps x3 -
You need an amp now, to drive what you have.The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
It is imperative that we recognize that an opinion is not a fact. -
Oh my,
The Signatures are made to work well on lower powered AVR's but do wake up with power added. I added a budget Emotiva BasX-A300 and my S60 woke up.
With your AVR I would stay away from RTi/RTiA, not enough power.
Yes I totally agree that a matching center is a must, either get a S30 or one of the TSX centers. I'm using a TSX250C and it blends well with the S60'sWhen I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music -
Will someone please explain the ambiguous metaphor "wake up".
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Appreciate all the feedback so far. I have been reading this as well that I would need an amp. Would anyone be able to recommend a budget friendly amp for either model? I already have almost 3k into what I have now and want to keep being married if you get my drift
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You will need an amp for sure if you swap them.
The 9’s need at least 200 watts to wake up.
I would also work on getting a matching center either way you go.
The sound output difference between 90 watts and 200 watts is about 3.5db.
3db isn't much, surely not a wake up call.
Check the link and hear a 3db change.
audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=3"Make a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Light
a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -
You will need an amp for sure if you swap them.
The 9’s need at least 200 watts to wake up.
I would also work on getting a matching center either way you go.
The sound output difference between 90 watts and 200 watts is about 3.5db.
3db isn't much, surely not a wake up call.
Check the link and hear a 3db change.
audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=3
Remember a receiver does not really output its full watts with 5 channels driven.
He is getting like 45 watts per channel with all channels driven.
With the amp it will be full watts per channel. Not many receivers can keep up with a dedicated amp.
That said the 9’s are night and day with a dedicated amp. Damage is likely with a receiver as your power source.
Main room- RTiA9 x4, CSiA6, in ceiling Atmos RT-70 x4, SVS PC 4000 x2, Marantz 8805A, OPPO 203, Emotiva DR3 G3, Emotiva XPA-2 G3, Emotiva XPA-5 G3, Emotiva X300, Sony 75" 940E, Panasonic Plasma VT50, PS Audio Power Port X2, PS Audio AC-5 x8, AQ Rocket 33 Biwire speaker cables, AQ King Cobra XLR IC, Furman PFi20 W/Cullen cable, SoildSteel S4-4 rack, Gik room treatments
Office- Legend L600, in ceiling Polk RC80i, Marantz 7704, OPPO 203, Pioneer Elite PDF-59 CD, PSA Stellar 300, Sony 55" 800B, Gik room treatment
Master BR- Signature ES60, Signature S35 Center, Signature S15 Dolby Height, LSI700 in ceiling, SVS-SB4000, Marantz 5012, Emotiva XPA5 G2, OPPO 203, Pioneer DVL-919 Laser Disc, Sony 55" OLED
Patio- SDI Atrium8 x3, Emotiva A-100 amps x3 -
Does anyone know anything about Crown Amps? Seem to be budget friendly from what I can see?
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I've used them in pro audio applications and they have always been solid. I know that lots of people use them in-home, but I am not sure if those are pro models as they have been redesigned since my corporate A/V days.Audio_Nut_2017 wrote: »Does anyone know anything about Crown Amps? Seem to be budget friendly from what I can see?
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I wouldn't look at pro crown amps, especially with RTI speakers, unless you enjoy ice picks in your ears.
Look for a used Parasound 1200 or 1500, around 400 bucks. Also B&k amps on the used markets for around the same price. Either will shine with those speakers. Make sure your receiver has pre-outs to add an amp first of all.
Personally, I'd keep what you have, take the receiver out of bi-amp mode, your not doing anything positive that way. Save your cereal boxtops and make changes that will matter to bigger degrees if you can't afford an amp right now.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
The general consensus here is to stay away from pro amps for powering full range speakers. For subs they are fine. They are not designed for finesse or linearity, but rather filling a large venue with loud sound for hours. So they do not sound good with home speakers...
The difference (that matters) between a receiver and a dedicated amp is current, not watts. And the difference (that matters) in output is not decibels, but sound quality. More current makes everything sound better. Bass will be tighter and dig deeper as those woofers will "wake up" (i.e. have enough current to fully engage them), the individual instruments will be more easily discernable, the sound will be less compressed or congested sounding, etc. And especially at low volumes, you will hear a big difference in quality.
Look for a Parasound HCA-1200 or 1500, or a rotel or B&K with 200 watts per channel. Used is your friend, do not be afraid...Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es
Game Room 5.1.4: Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra
Bedroom 2.1 Harmon Kardon HK3490; Bluesounds Node N130; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer -
Well, I don't see any pre-outs on your receiver after looking it up so your crap out of luck adding an amp to that receiver. I would imagine buying a receiver and an amp is definitely not wife approved.
Stick with what ya got and take that receiver out of bi-amp mode, save your coin, birthday money, bar mitzvah , Christmas, whatever.
If things aren't sounding right to you, we can help you optimize the settings in your receiver/sub.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
All- I cannot thank everyone for this great advice! I was aforesaid if this but a 450 a piece for the RTI’s I figured was worth a shot. The Sig 60’s won’t need an amp then and should be good to go is that what I am gathering? They sound great right now to be honest but the RTI’s are so highly rated figured hey why not try! Again, no no amping and just run straight 5 channel and that should help with sound? I was always told bi amping was be way to go? Again, thanks so much all! New to forums and find this very insightful and informative! Hooked to say the least. All the people saying matching center, I replaced my CSI4 with tended tech and what a difference I my opinion! Def-Tech sounds beautiful IMO of course? What’s the main draw on a poll center over the Def’s
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Thank everyone enough sorry for my typo!!
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@tonyb yes you are correct! She is out of the country and I just bought all this stuff I posted originally in the last week or so. She’s going to come back and have. a big surprise in our viewing room! Lol I did consider getting a better amp and trying to sell mine but wasn’t sure about that!
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Minus the receiver had that since 2015! Worked fine running my tsi series!
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The general consensus here is to stay away from pro amps for powering full range speakers. For subs they are fine. They are not designed for finesse or linearity, but rather filling a large venue with loud sound for hours. So they do not sound good with home speakers...
The difference (that matters) between a receiver and a dedicated amp is current, not watts. And the difference (that matters) in output is not decibels, but sound quality. More current makes everything sound better. Bass will be tighter and dig deeper as those woofers will "wake up" (i.e. have enough current to fully engage them), the individual instruments will be more easily discernable, the sound will be less compressed or congested sounding, etc. And especially at low volumes, you will hear a big difference in quality.
And he NAILED IT!!!
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
The reason you want a timbre matched center is to not localize the center speaker.
The front three speakers usually act in concert. For instance, not all dialogue comes from the center. Depending on the scene, the engineer may have 70 percent of the dialogue coming from the center, and the remaining 30 percent from the other two.
Then if you have two characters carrying on a conversation, the engineer can have 20 percent from front left, 70 percent from the center, and 10 percent from front right. That would make it seem that the dialogue is coming from the character on the left. Reverse the percentages, and the dialogue seems to be coming from the right side character.
I'm sure that the percentages aren't even close, just an example.
When the front three are timbre matched, it would sound more realistic, seemless, if you will. Have a center that is brighter or more laud back, and you may miss the subtle shift of the left and right side voices.
Some people have never had a matching front stage, so they may not realize what there missing. Many, if not most will isolate the center channel with every word spoken, if they are used to a matching front sound stage. Another case of not knowing what you're missing unless you've heard it before. -
OP, you need the matching center as the front 3 need to be timbre matched for a seamless sound stage.
One other tidbit, you cannot bi-amp with an AVR. It simply isn't possible despite the claims by the manufacturers. It's sales hype, nothing more.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You will need an amp for sure if you swap them.
The 9’s need at least 200 watts to wake up.
I would also work on getting a matching center either way you go.
The sound output difference between 90 watts and 200 watts is about 3.5db.
3db isn't much, surely not a wake up call.
Check the link and hear a 3db change.
audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=3
Listening to a few seconds of a fixed test tone is no way to assess the difference between a 90wpc amp and a 200wpc amp or to judge decibel levels. I disagree that 3dB is not much when playing full range music. BTW, I could easily hear the difference of the 1dB test tones.Post edited by F1nut onPolitical Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Thanks again all!!!!
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Will someone please explain the ambiguous metaphor "wake up".
Well for me as this is my first venture into a separate amp.
Before I hooked up the amp I played a Rush 2112 @ -10db. Hooked the amp up and played it again after Audyssey. It is a serious improvement in the overall sound quality, sound is more spot one. It's not much louder but going over -10db on some music I could hear the speakers straining, now no more. The more solid power allows the speakers to operate at their potential rather than being constrained by the smaller power supply of the AVR.
Yes I am now hooked on amps, would like to add a bigger Parasound once budget permits.When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music -
@mrloren how do you determine what your playback db is?
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Thanks, Mr Loren! That gives me a better idea of what it means specifically. I knew there would be improvements, but I wasn't sure in what area.
I bought an Adcom GFA555 II (200w) and bypassed the main amp in an 80 watt Yamaha A-1000 in 1993, about a year and a half after I bought my 2.3TL's. At the same time, I bought much better speaker wire and two sets of interconnects (CD to Pre and Pre to Power). Obviously there was a lot of improvement, but it's sort of hazy after all these years.
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You will need an amp for sure if you swap them.
The 9’s need at least 200 watts to wake up.
I would also work on getting a matching center either way you go.
The sound output difference between 90 watts and 200 watts is about 3.5db.
3db isn't much, surely not a wake up call.
Check the link and hear a 3db change.
audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=3
Remember a receiver does not really output its full watts with 5 channels driven.
He is getting like 45 watts per channel with all channels driven.
With the amp it will be full watts per channel. Not many receivers can keep up with a dedicated amp.
That said the 9’s are night and day with a dedicated amp. Damage is likely with a receiver as your power source.
I take it the AX-750 must be sub-par model in comparison to the Yamaha DSP-A1 and DSP-A3090 receivers I owned. Those are the only 5+ channel models I've had, since then I been running a preamp with a separate amp for 2 channel or 2.1 channel rigs. I'm more concerned about max current output then total wattage on amps now anyway. SDA's and SRS's love current.
Right now I burning in a little Parasound A23 amp using my 2.3's and even though it's a small amp it powers them quite nicely, more then enough to wake them up. No complaints here. It's actually for my monitor 7 series 2 speakers however.
Personally I'm happy using my 2.3's with a HSU sub for home theater use anyways.
"Make a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Light
a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -
That A23 is underrated, it punches way above its price point.The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
It is imperative that we recognize that an opinion is not a fact. -
@mrloren how do you determine what your playback db is?
I think it in the audio menu scale, you can either chose the volume to be 0 to 98 or -75.5 db to +18db going to 0db only happens once in a blue moon. I like mine in db. Most of the time I'm around -20 db going to -10db dishes rattle for the rare 0db I think the drywall flexes.When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music -
Thanks, Mr Loren! That gives me a better idea of what it means specifically. I knew there would be improvements, but I wasn't sure in what area.
I bought an Adcom GFA555 II (200w) and bypassed the main amp in an 80 watt Yamaha A-1000 in 1993, about a year and a half after I bought my 2.3TL's. At the same time, I bought much better speaker wire and two sets of interconnects (CD to Pre and Pre to Power). Obviously there was a lot of improvement, but it's sort of hazy after all these years.
One example I have is this,
My oldest kid (23) is a classical music nut. Till I added the amp she would only listen on her head set. She has some $300 headset made for that kind of music. She said she can't hear all the music the way it should to be played. About a month ago she was listening to something with a nice jazzy bass and cello. I asked her to put it on the stereo. First thing she said is "what did you do". I only added a simple Emotiva amp.
Yes the Signatures play classical very nice.When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music -
I love the S60 but if you can power the RTi A9 properly, it is a definite step up.
Since you have DefTech BP9000 series center and surrounds, have you looked into a matching BP9000 series tower? Try one. I love them
.
As for my thoughts on amps, they are a big noticeable improvement in performance (not just overall volume). Really brings out the full potential of your speakers. Plays with more authority. Definite worthwhile investment.
Regarding Crown, I used to be skeptical as well but I have personally tried the XLS1502 and it is fantastic for the price. If you can't get the other brands mentioned, you won't be suffering much with the new XLS series . Huge improvement in performance of the system. (took it out of the system for a while and hooked up the av receiver straight to the fronts and all the fun just went away ) -
TopperDude wrote: »I love the S60 but if you can power the RTi A9 properly, it is a definite step up.
Since you have DefTech BP9000 series center and surrounds, have you looked into a matching BP9000 series tower? Try one. I love them.
As for my thoughts on amps, they are a big noticeable improvement in performance (not just overall volume). Really brings out the full potential of your speakers. Plays with more authority. Definite worthwhile investment.
Regarding Crown, I used to be skeptical as well but I have personally tried the XLS1502 and it is fantastic for the price. If you can't get the other brands mentioned, you won't be suffering much with the new XLS series . Huge improvement in performance of the system. (took it out of the system for a while and hooked up the av receiver straight to the fronts and all the fun just went away )
Thinking about grabbing the 9060’s and being done with it. Will my receive be good for those as i don’t hav ran amp out on it?
