Atmos suggestions for my system

ChadATL

So I just got a new Denon 6400H to kick off my new Atmos fun.

I currently have:
1 pair of LS50 -- from corners of room tilted slightly in
1 CS245I center -- under projector screen (2ft from floor)
2 FX 300I dipole on the sides -- about 6-7ft even with seating
2 LC80i rear ceiling speakers -- behind seating and a little wider
1 Polk subwoofer dsw pro 550wi - under one of the dipoles next to cabinet

room is around 13ft x 13ft with end open behind seating

ceiling is 2X2 Cheyenne Ceiling Pnls on drop ceiling and walls are sheet rock (on top of wood paneling)

I am looking for suggestions for atmos speakers, how many, and placement. Also, do I have any weak links? Polk rep I talked to was no fan of the LC80i rears, but I can't find anything written bad about them. Thoughts ?

I was thinking 4 ceilings speakers in line with the fronts...

Thanks you for help!
Chad

mrloren

Don't need much for Atmos speakers. SC/MC60 would work just fine for in-ceiling options. Dolby has a placement diagram on their web site. Adding to a 7.1.4 setup would be nice, I would also strongly suggest a bigger sub or two either HSU or SVS. Once Atmos get rolling you'll need a ton of bass.

ChadATL

Thanks Mr. Loren - How big of a sub are you talking? I see a reasonable SVS 300 watt one. Could I add to my system or replace my 550wi? Are you saying 4 Atmos speakers? Thanks again.

EndersShadow

Chad:

I don't think you will find many folks with opinions on the LC line of speakers as most dont have in-wall. IIRC the following folks have used Polk in-wall/ceiling @Jstas @John Megadeth @scubalab . I dont think there is anything wrong with the LC line, but I've not put ears on them.

Regarding Atmos speakers, I've got no real recommendations besides a NON POLK suggestion, which are these ones. You gotta build it all, but not difficult or hard to put together (Volt 10 + Flatpack) from what I've read. Given you have a drop ceiling, you could even just leave the flatpack unpainted, or just shoot it quick with a coat of blank paint.

I would suggest 4 Atmos speakers if you can get that many in as that is a bit of a tight room.

The link here to Dolby's website has different configurations based on how many speakers you have. I'd follow those as a baseline.

As mentioned the only weak link I can see is your sub. I would throw out the suggestion of either doubling down on what you have, placing them on the front wall, or replacing with a single or dual big bad subs.

I'd suggest stuff from HSU, SVS, PSA as good places to look. The bigger the better, but honestly your gonna be paying in the 500 buck give or take range to get a "decent" sub.

Jstas

The LC80i was the in-ceiling version of the LSi series speakers. No longer available as far as I know. Might be NOS or used, though.

I don't know why someone wouldn't be a fan. I heard them at a PolkFest and also at a local electronics store that's no longer there. I was impressed for what came from a ceiling speaker.

That said, they are thirsty for power like all the LSi speakers and they like good, clean, high current power. The ring radiator tweeter is impressive but bright and I don't think they would make great speakers for a surround speaker. They aren't super sensitive and usually want more power than a surround channel will typically provide. So they will be a but muted for surround duty, I think. I'd probably go with something else unless you are just trying to do a tonal match to other LSi speakers or you are getting a killer deal on them. But you have a pretty wide mismash of speakers there so I don't know that it will matter much.

If you are looking at them for the LS line then I'd look more towards a new set of 700-LS as they are more sensitive than the older ones. But honestly, you'd be pleased with the 70-RT for Atmos duty, I think.

Jstas

Also, I have a DSW pro550wi as well and I gotta be honest, if you think it's the weak link you really gotta get your ears on one. It's a stellar performer! Far from a weak link IMO.

EndersShadow

Jstas wrote: »

Also, I have a DSW pro550wi as well and I gotta be honest, if you think it's the weak link you really gotta get your ears on one. It's a stellar performer! Far from a weak link IMO.

For a basshead like me it would be. But thats personal preference, and his room v mine is likely a significant difference.

I had a 15" ported sub tuned to 19hz w 1k of wattage, and moved from that to a 18" sealed Dayton Ultimax w 2k of power and 4 x 12" Infinity subs nearfield in sealed boxes w 2k of wattage, and I'd still like more because I like ULF ....

^Yes I have a problem, and while admitting it is the first step to solving it, I dont wanna solve it, so I just admit it and then buy more subs

ZLTFUL

13x13 is too small for a 7.1.4 setup. 13x13 is too small for a 5.1.4 setup.

5.1.2 would be fine. Atmos speakers and side/rear surround need ~45* of separation to produce enough of a difference for surround effects to actually "move" through the room.

ChadATL

Here's a thousand words about my room. Pic is not perfect, but not bad. The LS50s are turned in a bit towards the listener.

1 - Should I move my sub ? I was thinking maybe to the left side 'north' of the sectional.

2 - I was thinking of moving the lc80is out 2 ft each. Thoughts ?

3- 2 or 4 Atmos speakers ? Is everyone in agreement that my room is too small ? I was thinking the open back may help. I could move back the sectional, but the chase stops that.

THANKS

rpf65

In a 13x13 room, I would probably go 5.1.2. More speakers don't always equate to better sound.

Have to agree that for HT duty, you could do better in the sub department. The DSW 500 is a fairly capable, but there are better out there. Examples that would work well in your room size would be SVS PB 2000 or HSU VTF-3 MK5. These two just dig way deeper than the Polk, but then again if your happy with the Polk, keep it.

txcoastal1

Yes 5.1.2
Spread the LC80i's out another 1'-2', move them up a couple feet, they have adjustable tweeters

Put your 2 atmos speakers above the front corners of the table basically splitting the distance of front and rear channel speakers

Even a PB1000 in a 13x13 would work

ChadATL

Where does that leave the FX300Is ? (red trianbgles in pic)

txcoastal1

I missed the FX300's
In that case put the LC80's where I suggested for the atmos speakers for a 5.1.2 setup

ChadATL

Thanks for the help!!

mrloren

I agree on the Atmos speakers going above the table or maybe a little more forward. It also looks like you do have enough space behind the seating area for surround back speakers for a 7.1.2 setup. More sub would help too

Dmega

I've built a few different atmos systems now and from experimentation I would say the more the speakers the better. Even in a small room.

Weak links....this is hard to say without using your speakers. I do know dipole speakers are not Dolby atmos recommended but try them out and see if they work.

Most any in ceiling speakers should work fine. If possible I would recommend using all the same line and brand of speakers. It's not a must but is better.

Subwoofer is the second most important speaker in home theater setup. Spend money there first and the more you have the better.

ZLTFUL

Cramming as many speakers into a small room as you can is most assuredly the wrong thing to do. But what does Dolby know...I mean they only developed the technology and speaker layout recommendations.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/home/dolby-atmos.html
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/index.html

Dmega

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Cramming as many speakers into a small room as you can is most assuredly the wrong thing to do. But what does Dolby know...I mean they only developed the technology and speaker layout recommendations.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/home/dolby-atmos.html
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/index.html

I respectfully disagree. Dolby only gives setup guides such as speaker placement and angles, but they don't say room size dimensions for each setup. As I said before I've setup many atmos layouts specifically in a room space roughly 11 x 18. Ive done 5.1.2 then 7.2.2 then 7.2.4. They are all good but the last one being the most immersive.

ZLTFUL

Dmega wrote: »

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Cramming as many speakers into a small room as you can is most assuredly the wrong thing to do. But what does Dolby know...I mean they only developed the technology and speaker layout recommendations.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/home/dolby-atmos.html
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/index.html

I respectfully disagree. Dolby only gives setup guides such as speaker placement and angles, but they don't say room size dimensions for each setup. As I said before I've setup many atmos layouts specifically in a room space roughly 11 x 18. Ive done 5.1.2 then 7.2.2 then 7.2.4. They are all good but the last one being the most immersive.

Oh it is possible. I have seen a 9.2.6 system done in a 13x13 room. Granted, that was with over $20k worth of Trinnov and 2 AVRs to make it happen and even then the room measurements were borderline at best.

To each their own I suppose but exposure to over 2 dozen Atmos home theaters and the installation records of 2 very successful shops I have worked with disagree with your assessment.

Not only that but it is kind of hard to get correct angles when you don't have the space to properly use those Dolby recommended angles.

txcoastal1

IMHO 5.2.1 would be best, a 7.2.1 might be accomplished

If there were a pair of rear stand speakers a couple feet behind the sofa, then a 4 atmos ceiling speakers, then I could see a 7.4.1 system. As is per drawing then I would recommend 5.2.1

Dmega

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Dmega wrote: »

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Cramming as many speakers into a small room as you can is most assuredly the wrong thing to do. But what does Dolby know...I mean they only developed the technology and speaker layout recommendations.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/home/dolby-atmos.html
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/index.html

I respectfully disagree. Dolby only gives setup guides such as speaker placement and angles, but they don't say room size dimensions for each setup. As I said before I've setup many atmos layouts specifically in a room space roughly 11 x 18. Ive done 5.1.2 then 7.2.2 then 7.2.4. They are all good but the last one being the most immersive.

Oh it is possible. I have seen a 9.2.6 system done in a 13x13 room. Granted, that was with over $20k worth of Trinnov and 2 AVRs to make it happen and even then the room measurements were borderline at best.

To each their own I suppose but exposure to over 2 dozen Atmos home theaters and the installation records of 2 very successful shops I have worked with disagree with your assessment.

Not only that but it is kind of hard to get correct angles when you don't have the space to properly use those Dolby recommended angles.

At a certain point a room size does limit the number of speakers and praticallity of just moving around. That said in my space I could put 2 more ceiling speakers, 2 front wides and 2 rear wides and be just fine with the angles. For most 7.1.4 is the most atmos they will have just based on the receiver affordability. Trinov is very excessive but now that you mentioned it I'm starting to have visions of what can be done in my space with 32 tiny satellites. So when I say the more the merrier I know most people won't go past 11 speakers. I don't think people should be discouraged to go max speakers as there is an improvement.

ZLTFUL

When speakers are too close together, it muddies the surround effects. Case in point, most commercial theaters cram in more speakers than they need and most well designed home theaters will blow them away.
And don't take it personally but I'm going to take the advice of guys like Nyah Mellor who states the same as I have suggested above.

F1nut

rpf65 wrote: »

In a 13x13 room, I would probably go 5.1.2. More speakers don't always equate to better sound.

I'd go 5.1 and call it a day.......oh wait, I did.

Seriously, shoving a ton of speakers in a room that small is not going to sound good. Just like 2 channel, speakers need room to breath.

Dmega

I would take my home 7.2.4 Atmos theatre vs. any commercial movieplex I've been to for sound quality. This is one reason why I've only gone out to see 1 movie this year.

LOL more speakers in a room does not mean it sounds bad in every situation. Atmos is not like listening to 11 speaker stereo music where the same sound is coming from every speaker at the same time.

Atmos takes advantage of having more speakers to present a more realistic 3d sound presentation vs traditional 5.1 or 7.1 mixes. To achieve a smoother transition effect more speakers help to eliminate voids where sound should be coming from.

To localize a sound coming form a specific area Atmos will map what the sound engineer intended to your speaker layout but it's better if you had a speaker in the right place to begin with. Just because you have multiple speakers it doesn't mean sound will come from all of them. This is totally dependent on the movies audio mix.

I have a what F1Nut would consider lots of speakers and despite his opinion it sounds really, really good.

Some swear multi channel is also good for music. I don't know as I haven't really tried it. I've always been more traditional when it comes to music.

cfrizz

When playing my music off of my mp3 player I use all my speakers 5.2. If listening to cd's then its 2.2 channels

BlueFox

I have 5.1 in an 11x12 room, and while I have no complaints about the sound, it is hard to move around in it since there is also a love seat, two racks for gear, a bookcase for DVDs, and a 75" TV.

If I were more into my HT I could see the advantage of the additional channels, but have never been very enthusiastic about either wall or ceiling mounted speakers.

ZLTFUL

Dmega wrote: »

I would take my home 7.2.4 Atmos theatre vs. any commercial movieplex I've been to for sound quality. This is one reason why I've only gone out to see 1 movie this year.

LOL more speakers in a room does not mean it sounds bad in every situation. Atmos is not like listening to 11 speaker stereo music where the same sound is coming from every speaker at the same time.

Atmos takes advantage of having more speakers to present a more realistic 3d sound presentation vs traditional 5.1 or 7.1 mixes. To achieve a smoother transition effect more speakers help to eliminate voids where sound should be coming from.

To localize a sound coming form a specific area Atmos will map what the sound engineer intended to your speaker layout but it's better if you had a speaker in the right place to begin with. Just because you have multiple speakers it doesn't mean sound will come from all of them. This is totally dependent on the movies audio mix.

I have a what F1Nut would consider lots of speakers and despite his opinion it sounds really, really good.

Some swear multi channel is also good for music. I don't know as I haven't really tried it. I've always been more traditional when it comes to music.

My last post on the subject so you can have the last word and "win" the argument.

No matter what magic you THINK you know is happening, Atmos mixes still use time delay to produce their points in space object based surround. That being said, let's take it to a simplest form...stack 4 center channel speakers, and 8 left and right channels speakers all right up against each other. By your logic, it should sound amazing and everyone should be doing it...

But you know why people don't? Because comb filtering, spatial separation, baffle reflections...tons of technical terms meaning it sounds like crap.

More power to you if you think cramming 900 speakers into a room sounds awesome. But me, my ears still work correctly and if a room isn't set up properly, I can always hear it withing seconds of a movie or song starting.

To each their own...even if they are wrong.