So I'm thinking about a new sub....

Frank Z

....and no it's not an SVS.

Click here

PolkWannabie

Sunfire (Carver) does a lot of things well, but subs imho don't happen to be one of them. Listen ...

polkatese

Aren't you missing out other great subs by blindly devoting your franklins to Sunfire, Frank?

*flame suit on*

Frank Z

Not at all folks. When you find a brand that works well for you there's not a darn thing wrong with sticking with it, Kinda like speakers. SDA's, RT's, Lsi's all fall into the same category.

I'd love to have some of you folks over to hear how well my little MKII handles music and movie soundtracks. You might actually get to feelin' a bit different.

SVS may do it for some, but to me they are FUGLY!! (Double flame suit is already on). No way I'd put one in my room. There are other subs out there that do a great job, but just about everyone that I've seen or heard is much bigger than I want. When it comes to small footprint subs, I don't think Carver has any competition.

PolkWannabie

Originally posted by Frank Z
When it comes to small footprint subs, I don't think Carver has any competition.

On that we can agree, but correct me if I'm wrong ... I thought you had an out of the way room that was pretty much dedicated to HT as opposed to a room that's trying to double as something else. If that's the case I would think that most of the time when you're in there the lights are out i.e. you see nothing but what's on the wonderfully large screen.

Frank Z

I use the room for multi-channel listening as well, so the lights aren't always off/low.

I also listen to 2 -channel and the sub is not used.

PolkWannabie

Close your eyes

Frank Z

Originally posted by PolkWannabie
Close your eyes

I only do that when I'm in front of the mirror...NEKKID!!!!

Remeber I said thinkin' about, not definite plans yet.

pjdami

Frank,

Obviously you are loyal to Sunfire subs and that is cool. It is your money and your home and you do what makes you happy; that is all that matters really. You also have an outstanding Home Theater / two channel setup that many would be envious of.

I do like the equalizer on that Sunfire sub with the microphone setup. That can really help out room modes which if I remember correctly you were trying to optimize a few weeks ago when you put in the new rack / screen. The driver excursion looks very impressive as well.

To say that all SVS subs are ugly.. well that may be your opinion and I respect that but there are new products out like the SS cylinder subs that you can have stained in 20 different Minwax colors (just like you stained your AV rack which came out looking fantastic) and its real wood. I think they look very elegant in fact.
Small footprint here as well since its a cylinder.

There are options. However if your heart is set on the Sunfire then so be it as well. Congrats if you do.

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_ss.htm

PolkWannabie

Originally posted by Frank Z
I only do that when I'm in front of the mirror...NEKKID!!!!

ROTFL ... Yep it ain't like bein 20 is it. After awhile the ripples of muscle seem to run together.

Tour2ma

Mostly the muscles seem to be migrating from all extremities and meeting in the middle...

Frank,
What's the tab on the new Sunfire?

Frank Z

I think the MSRP is around $17-1900, but I'm not 100% sure.

danger boy

i thought i read somewhere that NAD and HSU joined forces to produce and sell a new sub. is that true?

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by danger boy
i thought i read somewhere that NAD and HSU joined forces to produce and sell a new sub. is that true?

It was Outlaw and Hsu. It's an STF-3 clone. If you want more info on the STF-3, go to Hsu's website. Also check my $600 shoot-out on HTF where it competed against the PB1-ISD.

Frank: Here's some fairly small foot-print alternatives that should exhibit equal or better extension and far lower distortion in the bottom octave than the Sunfire products:

- A sealed Tumult with a Linkwitz Transform EQ circuit from Brian Bunge over at Rutledge Audio Design.

- The Stryke Thunder and mini-Thunder.

- The Acoustic Visions Kilimanjaro. (A guy over in PA is also selling an almost new Denali at a great price, but it's a bit bigger at 24" square).

- The (pending) Rocket UFW-12.

- The Velo DD-12.

Why are you looking for a new sub - is there something inadequate about your current model?

Frank Z

No, nothing wrong. But the new subs have a built in EQ circuit that looks very interesting.

Sometimes the upgrade bug nibbles a bit before it bites down and causes an infection.:)

Dr. Spec

If the built-in mic and auto-PEQ feature is important for you, I can't think of a better sub than the new Velo Digital Drive series.

Velodyne is quite simply a technology leader in subwoofers.

They have hands down the most sophisticated and complete mic and auto PEQ function on the market.

They also have an upgraded servo circuit that not only samples far faster and is more accurate that the previous gen HGS, but it also has a user variable limit for THD that I think ranges from 1-3%.

Plus they are handsome and small in footprint. I can't think of a better solution to world class, ultra-low distortion, turn-key, totally optimized bass in a small and very attractive package.

Puuleeeaze, I implore you, do not commit to another Sunfire subwoofer for that kind of $$ until you at least audition the Velo DD series.

Doc

dave shepard

For a small sub in that price range I would look at the ML's the single 10" is about the size of my FX-30 and performed very well in the theater showroom I was in. If you can audition one it is worth a look.

Dave

Airplay355

sunfire subs are nice, but they sure do kill the wallet

warviper

I do not own a sunfire or an svs. But I have had a chance to demo the sunfire and came away awwed by the sound for the size. But damit Frank doesnt the svs temp you at all. Call me what you will but this year after I do up my two channel rig Im gonna get me an svs. The worst that can happen is that Im out on the shipping.

Dr. Spec

If Frank doesn't want an SVS, then we should respect that, whatever his reasons. I can't see how anyone could find the PB1-Plus ugly, but hey - different strokes.

What we can do is offer viable alternatives to the Sunfire brand to help him make an informed decision. The Sunfire goes loud, it goes fairly deep (maybe 25 Hz in room), but the harmonic distortion in bottom octave is quite high.

HD doesn't necessarily sound "bad" in the conventional sense one might imagine distortion. It is simply woofer-generated harmonics of the fundamental due to non-pistonic cone behavior or other electrical or magnetic anomalies.

Some people find woofer-generated harmonics pleasing, particularly if they are even order (since they are related to the fundamental in a musical sense). But they are not part of the source, and they shouldn't be present. Once someone gets accustomed to "clean" (i.e, low HD) bass, it is hard to go back.

The Velo DD-12 is impossible to beat for accuracy in that size enclosure, and remains my top recommendation for Frank.

Frank Z

Guy's I'm just kickin' the idea around, relax a little. Here's a few spec's if your interested.

Features and Specs
2700-watt amp featuring patented Tracking Downconverter power supply
Frequency response: 16 Hz to 100 Hz (+0, -3 dB)
Measurement microphone and automatic internal contour compensation keeps it that way
Greater than 116 dB peak SPL with room gain
Input coupling is optical and accepts balanced, standard and high-level inputs
Bore 10 inches - stroke 2.35 inches (over 360 cubic inches total air volume displacement)
Crossover points variable from 30 Hz to 100 Hz
Input level (volume) control
Phase continuously adjustable 0° to 180°
Passive 70 Hz 6 dB per octave hi-pass line level output for satellite loudspeakers
Dimensions: 13" by 13" by 13"
Two-year warranty

warviper

Hope I didnt come across as a jerk. Franks a smart guy Im sure he will make the best decision for him self.

Frank Z

Nah, it's all good!

goingganzo

get a tulumunt you can have it in like a 25 in cibe or smaller sealed and ir will distroy the sunfire i do love my sunfire pre but i think you can so alot better than their subs. ps did you ever think of a ib setup? easy as a pie

pjdami

Now this is really starting to become an interesting thread here. For some people the small footprint of a subwoofer remains the main deciding factor in choosing a subwoofer IF the subwoofer is also a good performer. Certainly, the Sunfire sub falls into this category as being a small sub and a good performer.

I'm kind of old school when it comes to subs though. I've built a few subs in my earlier years (car audio and home subs). Back when I built these subs, large drivers meant large volume of box required. This is what is referred to as an "efficient" design. By efficient this means that if the box is ported and tuned properly one doesn't need as much power in watts to have a killer sub. Manufacturers like Hsu, SVS, and Adire (among others) still use this conventional design.

Now in looking at the smaller subs like the Sunfire or the Velodyne DD12 one wonders how they can get all that mind boggling bass out of such a small enclosure? Obviously, the driver excursion has to be significant enough to move enough air. One has to move air to have bass. The other thing I notice is the amplifier ratings on these smaller subs. The amp ratings are much higher. This is what I would call an "inefficient" design. Not that the sub is inefficient or bad, but because you just need more watts to overcome the smaller box obstacle. The Sunfire can do what 800 watts continuous and 2700 watts peak and the Velodyne DD12 does 1250 watts with 3000 watts peak. Both also have the built in equalizer for helping the user obtain a flat overall response. I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong because I very well may be) the equalizer is an integral part of the design of these smaller subs with the larger rated amps. If one has to boost the output say 9 db to get a flat response down to 20 hz, one will need "more" power. I don't know, I'm just hypothesizing here a little.

Now, the $10,000 question is does this "boost" come at a price of more THD from this type of subwoofer compared to a more conventional "large" box type. That is the question I've been thinking about here. When one looks at the Sunfire THD spec it is rated at "1/10 the fundamental between 18 and 80 hz." Now what does that mean I don't have a clue. In comparison, a Velodyne DD18 review that I found on the net had a THD rating of "@ a 25 hz sine wave and max SPL = 110 db the THD was measured to be 1.85%." Now those are some numbers I can relate with.

Surely, a lot of R&D and testing goes on with the smaller sub designs but being an "old school" sub type person that I am, I'm having a hard time understanding how these smaller subs work.

goingganzo

man if sunfire gets its hands on a sub with the new xbl motor man that will realey inprive it or the new moror with 6 in of x max

i would do ib if i could it is the easyest thing to do you make a manafild cut a whole in the celing and atach manafild to studs paint or vener and make a cover. and maybe some trim around it and thoes subs sound the best

Dr. Spec

Paul - you're right on the bean.

The smaller the enclosure volume, the less efficient the speaker, the more amp power required, the more EQ required, and the higher the distortion (unless you're Velo and use a servo).

That's why IB's are so efficient; they are essentially operating in free air. You'll bottom an IB driver long before you hit its thermal power handling limit.

It isn't uncommon for a small, sealed enclosure to have 1W/1M sensitivity ratings in the 80dB range. Now, if you have a larger enclosure that is much more sensitive, say 95dB @ 1W/1M, then it would take 32w for the small enclosure to produce the same amount of bass the large enclosure does with one watt.

1w = 80
2w = 83
4w = 86
8w = 89
16w= 92
32w= 95
64w= 98
128w=101
256w=104
512w=107
1024w=110

1w = 95
2w = 98
4w = 101
8w = 104
16w= 107
32w = 110

The larger enclosure only needs 32 watts to produce the same amount of bass the smaller enclosure does with 1,000+ watts. When it comes to clean, deep, efficient bass - bigger is better.

Frank Z

If a smaller needs more power, and that power is available...what's the difference? If the internal amp is capable of providing the power needed it seems that it's a moot point. Higher EQ causes Distortion?

Frank Z

For those of you that found pjdami's questions to be intriguing (I sure did!), you might want to take a look at the TrueSub White Paper written by Bob Carver. If your intimdated by engineering principles, don't bother. The paper try's to explain some of the basic and more advanced principles behind the TrueSub design.

Click here.

faster100

You sound like your kinda already set on the carver? If that's the case, that's cool also... Just get what "YOU" think works.. all the suggestions are great, But in the end if your set on something.. your set.. I like/liked Onkyo/Integra and wouldnt even consider any other brands through 2 receivers.. But i held my breath and tried Denon for the first time and liked it alot.. I took the chance...

and it was worth it, same with My 2 Svs's ive had already....

Frank Z

I already have a Sunfire MKII and as I said previously I'm just exploring the possiblity of upgrading to a newer model. I'm not interested in SVS, but that's just me. You got one, you enjoy it, that's fine. I've got a Sunfire and have had tremendous luck with it. I've been more than satisfied with the volume, frequency and overall performance.

Has anyone actually looked at the Sunfire site and read up on the new models? Has anyone actually clicked on the link that I posted earlier and read through the document?

Good Gawd people, there are other subs, and there are people that actually like them.