Sunfire Cinema Grand 5 x 200 or Parasound 5250 v2 for HT

2

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    Something doesn't add up with those Pioneer specs. It states the max power consumption is 550 watts. My 2 channel amp is rated at 510 wpc @ 8 Ohms with a max power consumption of 1960 watts.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    I understand electronics quite well.

    I don't think you really understand how audio equipment is rated?

    I'll try to simplify it for you one more time:

    The Sunfire Cinema Grand 200x5 has the following specs:
    Rated max power: 200 watts x 5 (8 ohms, 20Hz–20kHz)
    Max THD: 0.5%
    Original Mfg. Suggested Retail Price: $2,375

    The Pioneer Elite SC-09TX has the following specs:
    Rated max power: 200 watts x 7 (8 ohms, 20Hz–20kHz)
    Max THD: 0.05%
    Original Mfg. Suggested Retail Price: $7,000

    I don't see how I can make it any more simple. The Pioneer not only has more power, which it seems is the only thing you take into consideration, it also has ten times less total harmonic distortion.

    What is it that you are confused about?
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    The THD of my amp is 0.007%.

    In reality anything below 1% is inaudible.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    edited June 2017
    F1nut wrote: »
    The THD of my amp is 0.007%.

    In reality anything below 1% is inaudible.

    This is coming from someone who professes about the differences in sound quality from speaker wires, MP3 vs Lossless and Mundorf capacitors?

    I think it definitely makes a difference. Your amp probably sounds a lot better than the Sunfire.

    The reason the power consumption is less with the SC-09TX is probably because it is a Class D amplifier.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    F1nut wrote: »
    Something doesn't add up with those Pioneer specs. It states the max power consumption is 550 watts. My 2 channel amp is rated at 510 wpc @ 8 Ohms with a max power consumption of 1960 watts.

    Ok, puzzle solved. The Pioneer uses ICE power while mine is Class A/B biased Class A.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • vmaxer
    vmaxer Posts: 5,117
    Sunfire info


    vbc671t6k5tf.png
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Gatecrasher wrote: »
    I understand electronics quite well.

    I don't think you really understand how audio equipment is rated?

    I'll try to simplify it for you one more time:

    The Sunfire Cinema Grand 200x5 has the following specs:
    Rated max power: 200 watts x 5 (8 ohms, 20Hz–20kHz)
    Max THD: 0.5%
    Original Mfg. Suggested Retail Price: $2,375

    The Pioneer Elite SC-09TX has the following specs:
    Rated max power: 200 watts x 7 (8 ohms, 20Hz–20kHz)
    Max THD: 0.05%
    Original Mfg. Suggested Retail Price: $7,000

    I don't see how I can make it any more simple. The Pioneer not only has more power, which it seems is the only thing you take into consideration, it also has ten times less total harmonic distortion.

    What is it that you are confused about?

    I guess I can't read. Please show me that specification. I only see that rating for two channel output.

    zvvk253njowv.png


    Also, as pointed out, the Sunfire will double power into 4 ohms. This is a very useful amp rating since speakers have wide impedance swings depending on the frequency. The Pioneer is only rated at 1KHz at 4 ohm.

    Now there is no denying the Pioneer is a nice AVR, but it's amp section isn't as good as the Sunfire. That isn't anything to be embarrassed about. :)

    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    edited June 2017
    F1nut wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    Something doesn't add up with those Pioneer specs. It states the max power consumption is 550 watts. My 2 channel amp is rated at 510 wpc @ 8 Ohms with a max power consumption of 1960 watts.

    Ok, puzzle solved. The Pioneer uses ICE power while mine is Class A/B biased Class A.

    That is correct. Class D is more efficient power consumption-wise. They also generate less heat.

    If you look at the beginning of this thread I stated that I too didn't believe that manufacturer's specs were the only thing to take into consideration but they do provide somewhat of a way to gauge audio equipment.

    What BlueFox asserted was that I was somehow making-up the specs on these units and now he claims I don't know anything about electronics?

    If you look at the specs, it's clear to see that the SC-09TX has better specs than the Sunfire Cinema Grand 200x5 does. Contrary to whatever BlueFox believes, there is no disputing the specs clearly show that the Pioneer has more power and a lower THD spec. That's all I'm saying. I still don't really understand what the confusion on his part is all about?
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    Gatecrasher wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    The THD of my amp is 0.007%.

    In reality anything below 1% is inaudible.

    This is coming from someone who professes about the differences in sound quality from speaker wires, MP3 vs Lossless and Mundorf capacitors?

    I think it definitely makes a difference. Your amp probably sounds a lot better than the Sunfire.

    The reason the power consumption is less with the SC-09TX is probably because it is a Class D amplifier.

    Why yes, some things do matter and some things don't. THD below 1% doesn't. Cables, sources and capacitors absolutely do.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    F1nut wrote: »
    Gatecrasher wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    The THD of my amp is 0.007%.

    In reality anything below 1% is inaudible.

    This is coming from someone who professes about the differences in sound quality from speaker wires, MP3 vs Lossless and Mundorf capacitors?

    I think it definitely makes a difference. Your amp probably sounds a lot better than the Sunfire.

    The reason the power consumption is less with the SC-09TX is probably because it is a Class D amplifier.

    Why yes, some things do matter and some things don't. THD below 1% doesn't. Cables, sources and capacitors absolutely do.

    That's your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it.

    But as for the specs between the Sunfire and the Pioneer, there is no disputing that the Pioneer has better specs.
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Gatecrasher wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    Gatecrasher wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    The THD of my amp is 0.007%.

    In reality anything below 1% is inaudible.

    This is coming from someone who professes about the differences in sound quality from speaker wires, MP3 vs Lossless and Mundorf capacitors?

    I think it definitely makes a difference. Your amp probably sounds a lot better than the Sunfire.

    The reason the power consumption is less with the SC-09TX is probably because it is a Class D amplifier.

    Why yes, some things do matter and some things don't. THD below 1% doesn't. Cables, sources and capacitors absolutely do.

    But as for the specs between the Sunfire and the Pioneer, there is no disputing that the Pioneer has better specs.

    LOL. The specs have been posted, and they don't support your claim. You might be right, but until you provide actual, verifiable, data your claim is meaningless. Sorry.

    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    Gatecrasher wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    Gatecrasher wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    The THD of my amp is 0.007%.

    In reality anything below 1% is inaudible.

    This is coming from someone who professes about the differences in sound quality from speaker wires, MP3 vs Lossless and Mundorf capacitors?

    I think it definitely makes a difference. Your amp probably sounds a lot better than the Sunfire.

    The reason the power consumption is less with the SC-09TX is probably because it is a Class D amplifier.

    Why yes, some things do matter and some things don't. THD below 1% doesn't. Cables, sources and capacitors absolutely do.

    That's your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it.

    But as for the specs between the Sunfire and the Pioneer, there is no disputing that the Pioneer has better specs.

    Well not really. The Sunfire is rated to drive all channels at 200 watts while the Pioneer is rated to drive 2 channels at 200 watts meaning the Sunfire power supply is more robust meaning it will handle such things as transients better.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    BlueFox wrote: »
    LOL. The specs have been posted, and they don't support your claim. You might be right, but until you provide actual, verifiable, data your claim is meaningless. Sorry.

    Here, maybe this help simplify it for you BlueFox:

    2ypcdnb.jpg

    e8tsuv.jpg
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    Seems Pioneer has two different versions of the specs.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Thank you. You should have posted that in the first place.

    However, there is a big difference between the technical manual, and the marketing brochure you posted. One of them is wrong.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    edited June 2017
    No they don't. The receiver has several modes. It's the most-advanced AVR Pioneer has ever produced. It's a 10.2 receiver but can be configured for 7.2, 5.2 (bi-amped), 3-channel, stereo, etc. It has 1400 watts total power available.

    I've used it several different ways so far.

    In a real-world test the SC-09TX delivered 267 watts per channel in bi-amp stereo mode.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    Yeah, they do and the technical manual would be the bible in this case.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Looks as if the Sunfire is a tad better. :). Still though, a nice AVR.

    cg5m08xhm5qd.png

    https://www.soundandvision.com/content/pioneer-elite-sc-09tx-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    edited June 2017
    lol

    There's just no winning with you guys is there?

    C'mon give me a break.
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  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    edited June 2017
    Uhh... I hate to break it to you BlueFox, but real world specs are always different than the advertised specs.

    The Sunfire has worse specs in real world testing too as does just about everything. Cars don't have the exact HP and fuel economy they claim either. But the manufacturer testing is done to an industry standard that all manufacturers adhere too.

    You aren't comparing apples to apples. You are skewing the data to fit your argument.

    Even with that being said, the SC-09TX still has better real-world specs than the Sunfire's manufacturer's advertised specs at 200 watts.

    Sunfire has .5% THD @ 200 watts and the Pioneer has .1% THD @200watts.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    The technical manual has to be accurate therefore it is the reference.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    edited June 2017
    I agree F1. When you compare two pieces of equipment spec-wise, you should go by the manufacturer's specs of both and not have one being real-world vs manufacturer's.

    It's not perfect but the industry is trying to level the playing field as much as possible.

    An amplifier power rating defined as 200W/Ch RMS 20Hz-20kHz, 8 Ohms 0.05% THD means that the amplifier is capable of delivering 200 watts average power per channel into an 8 Ohm speaker load at a maximum 0.05% total harmonic distortion over the specified frequency range when driven by a sinusoidal test tone - i.e. a single frequency swept over the entire frequency range.

    This format was originally mandated by the US Federal Trade Commission to provide a reference when comparing different amplifiers from different brands.
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    Gatecrasher wrote: »
    Uhh... I hate to break it to you BlueFox, but real world specs are always different than the advertised specs.

    The Sunfire has worse specs in real world testing too as does just about everything. Cars don't have the exact HP and fuel economy they claim either. But the manufacturer testing is done to an industry standard that all manufacturers adhere too.

    You aren't comparing apples to apples. You are skewing the data to fit your argument.

    Even with that being said, the SC-09TX still has better real-world specs than the Sunfire's manufacturer's advertised specs at 200 watts.

    Sunfire has .5% THD @ 200 watts and the Pioneer has .1% THD @200watts.


    Sorry GC, but if you are to state the Sunfire has worse real world specs than the Pioneer then you need to post data to support that statement. I am not skewing anything. I posted the Pioneer manual specification page, and the results from a test lab. Neither of those support your statement. As I said, I am an engineer and I just want data, not wishful thinking. Post some data, not marketing brochures, that supports your statement, and I will agree with it.

    Yes, the THD is better than the Sunfire, but that is a minor difference, and is probably at the bottom for comparing amps.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    Even when comparing the real-world data to the industry data the SC-09TX has superior specs to the Sunfire.

    No need to perpetuate the argument.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    Whatever you do F1 don't start squealing now!

    lol
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  • Hermitism
    Hermitism Posts: 4,271
    Gatecrasher wrote: »
    Whatever you do F1 don't start squealing now!

    lol
    You're mixing up Cool Hand Luke and Deliverance. Both in my top ten, btw.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    Gatecrasher wrote: »
    Whatever you do F1 don't start squealing now!

    lol

    You can't even get the movie correct.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Gatecrasher
    Gatecrasher Posts: 1,550
    edited June 2017
    Hermitism wrote: »
    Gatecrasher wrote: »
    Whatever you do F1 don't start squealing now!

    lol
    You're mixing up Cool Hand Luke and Deliverance. Both in my top ten, btw.

    Yeah you're right! lol

    Thanks for clearing it up. They are both top tens in my book too.

    Alright F1, don't eat all those eggs!!
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    LOL. Just as with politics, some people just make things up, and then try to pass it off as fact. Still awaiting the real world data to compare to the industry data. Then again, since the industry is in the real world, I'm not sure just what real world data actually is. :)
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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