Turntable outer ring clamp interest list...

nooshinjohn

Looking to see if there may be any interest in lp outer ring clamps... These tend to be way more money than I am willing to spend, and I know others must feel like I do. I am willing to do the legwork here if others may also be interested. I am hoping to see costs in the 250.00 range... If interested post here.

nooshinjohn

bump...

voltz

I love the looks of the VPI rings, thought I don't have hardly any warped records/vinyl I always loved the look of their rings. Thought they looked cool I still think they have their place in the vinyl world.

not really a reason to get one but if it fit all TT's and why not right? and there was a cheaper version from another company that they don't make them anymore and I missed out buying one

You got my interest up.

msg

I'm interested.
I did some reading on these a while back.
There were a few different companies making these things for a while, but then stopped. One I spoke with was trying to sell the plans, I believe. I think it was this guy:
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ttring.html

TT Weights was another guy fabricating all kinds of different and cool tt stuff, but again, closed up. I think he was the only one developing something for the SL-1200? Can't remember for sure. Been a long time since I looked into this. Gave up because no one seemed to be making universal types.
His site's down, but there's a bunch of stuff in this thread over on Steve Hoffman
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/outer-ring-record-clamps-non-vpi.430716/

What're you thinking?

voltz

^^^^^
That is it the one i was thinking about. my Eagles Greatest it is warp so bad i just bought their box set, problem solved LOL

nooshinjohn

I have a TTW ring that I picked up for 250.00 and I like it, but think it can be improved, but it does make for a nice prototype. I am thinking of something along those lines but rather than the copper weights, I am looking to have a deeper skirt on it in order to add mass.

msg

Do you have any fabrication contacts yet?
I saw you mention it to Larry on another thread.

• Are you looking to make something relatively universal, or table/type specific?
• One model, or maybe different designs or weights for different table types?
• Sandwich clamp design, or simple ring?

You mention adding mass. What are you looking to accomplish overall, considering you already have one of the best aftermarket rings ever produced? What do you think greater mass in the ring will offer? Asking out of curiosity, because I don't know.

Not sure what goes into this, but from discussions with Rudolf on his URSR, he says, in short, that there's more to it than just machining a metal ring for mass alone.

My initial research was spurred by the desire to address flatness issues, finding that a lot of brand new records were warped. I learned in my reading that periphery rings and clamps can offer more benefits than that alone. I've also read that certain other experiments deadened and flattened music. Be good to tap the knowledge and experience of those who've gone before, I imagine.

nooshinjohn

I find that just a bit more weight is needed for those 200 gram records than my current ring provides. I am inclined to be in the camp of a well machined and balanced ring will provide improvements so long as it does not overload the spindle bearing and wear it out prematurely.I don't believe the material it is made of has anything to do with the sound. Again, it comes down to the appropriate amount of mass, and that number is open for debate

treitz3

John, I am most definitely interested brother.

Tom

55LS70

Just a thought? Is there enough room on that TTW ring to drill out holes and press in "heavy metal" to gain the needed weight. The weights could be added in the appropriate areas to maintain balance. I'm guessing the procedure wouldn't be a whole lot different than balancing an engine crankshaft. Again, just a thought.

xschop

What's the inside and outside diameter?

msg

So when should I expect delivery?

treitz3

^^^ What he said. ^^^

Tom

nooshinjohn

So far there has not been enough interest to make the numbers work... so no date yet.

msg

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Looking to see if there may be any interest in lp outer ring clamps... These tend to be way more money than I am willing to spend, and I know others must feel like I do. I am willing to do the legwork here if others may also be interested. I am hoping to see costs in the 250.00 range... If interested post here.

John, just stumbled across a site for a guy who's making outer ring clamps.
Check this out to see if there are any that suit what you were after before. They well exceed the 250 mark, though.
https://www.waynesaudio.com/shop

Here's one that's 3.2lbs

Clipdat

You're a day late and a dollar short, Scott. John is officially DONE with vinyl.

msg

I just saw that. I never read John's posts, though.

nooshinjohn

Clipdat wrote: »

You're a day late and a dollar short, Scott. John is officially DONE with vinyl.

Officially taking a break from vinyl....

Clipdat

True. No record lover is ever truly "done" with vinyl. My mistake!

treitz3

I am actually eyeing that one Scott. (the one in the photo)

Either that or a new cartridge. I had my eye on a Jim Smith cartridge before X-mas last year and some schmuck grabbed it moments before I did. Then lost track after that and ended up upgrading my network player. That was the complete opposite of what I wanted to do. DOH!

But, there is nothing more I really need to do with the rest of my system, other than getting the electrical finished. Finding the time to get that done myself has proven to be a challenge. I think at this point, I may just pay someone to do it.

So many things, not enough dough to get it all done at the moment...

Tom

msg

Hey Tom, yeah, curiosity got the better of me, and I went ahead and ordered a set from Wayne. I've got a couple of Technics tables, and there's only one ring he makes that fits them, the SS-T. It will also work on a Pro-ject Debut Carbon @voltz gave me when I was first getting started in vinyl. Wayne says his rings are universal for every other table except the Technics SL-120# series, which I think is due to the slope of the platter. I would have liked to have gone heavier, you know, just because, but I'll see how this works.

The SS-T ring is 990g, or a little over 2lbs. This ought to be enough to tame any warps and hops I've got in my collection. I've tried 16x16x0.5" glass plates and had one record in there for 2 to 3 years just because I haven't had time or interest for records in that time. It helped a bit, and still isn't perfectly flat.
I also think it will slowly return to its warped state. I did not want to use heat out of concern for lack of accuracy, overdoing it and ruining the affected records.

I have one of @Toolfan66 's Vinyl Death Grip clamps which I like a lot, but also ordered one of Wayne's weighted center clamps, the WS-2, to use along with the ring. Similar clamping mechanism, but also adds an additional 2lbs. Seems unnecessary since both clamp, but I think the added mass reduces resonance, though after reading more this morning on "The VDG/The Clamp" design, it's supposed to bleed off resonance, as well without the added weight.

This combination will add about 4lbs total to the spindle on an SL-1210 and that seems like a lot of weight for it, so I was wondering whether it might contribute to premature bearing wear. I asked Wayne about it and he said he's been selling the rings for over 5yrs and hasn't had anyone report any problems, but those sales haven't only been to 1200 owners. I just emailed Kevin at KAB to see what he says. If it both improves sound and contributes to abbreviated life, I'll probably just sacrifice the table over time, depending on what kind of results I have. There's a 14 day trial period in case it's completely ineffective.

So, thinking about how this works, it seems similar to me in what we talk about with coupling speakers to maximize performance. With a record, any slight hops or warps have the cantilever acting as a suspension for the cartridge, which is also the same path that generates the signal. On some level, this has to affect the accuracy of the signal, doesn't it? There's also the concept of irregular/inconsistent contact of the record on the platter/mat and how clamping increases that contact more uniformly and reduces unwanted resonance.

This also has me wondering what kind of platter mat is best. There are essentially two kinds - those with channels or voids, and those without. I currently have a channeled Fluance silicone mat, and also the KAB Poly-Metal mat, which is an aluminum disc with PVC damping on both sides intended to be used with a thin mat. This was designed to replace the original Technics thick rubber mat. I like the Fluance silicone, but I need to see how it factors in with the clamping. May need something more rigid without channels. I don't like the idea of cork. Just seems dirty and difficult to maintain, but they seem popular. And isn't there some synthetic cork variant out there?

I've got a fairly low end vinyl setup right now, relatively speaking, so it'll be interesting to see if I can easily notice a difference.
For reference, I'll be using:

• Technics SL-1210 table with oe captive cables
• Denon 301 MKI cartridge (original, not the MKII), which I'll be mounting today (yes, @jdjohn for real this time!)
• Musical Fidelity A5 with on-board phono pre (possibly Vincent PHO-8 or Lounge LCR later)
• Polk L800 Speakers with MIT S3 cables.

I've been cleaning my records with the Vinyl Styl Deep Groove with ISO/Triton-x/Quat record cleaning fluid recipe that @jdjohn got me turned on to (love it), and finishing with HumminGuru ultrasonic (distilled water) that @ZLTFUL told me about during the Kickstarter phase. I'm finding this combination to work *really* well, and the Quat has my records static-free as far as I can tell, and the last cleaning session was during low humidity/high static potential in my space. At some point, I do want to try the L'Art du Son cleaning fluid.

https://www.waynesaudio.com/product-page/universal-turntable-periphery-outer-ring-clamp-ss-t

https://www.waynesaudio.com/product-page/universal-record-clamp-ws-2

treitz3

Nice post, Scott.

msg wrote:

On some level, this has to affect the accuracy of the signal, doesn't it?

Logically thinking, one would definitely conclude this to be true. You know as well as I do what the record clamps do to the end result. I wouldn't see how this would be any different and we all know that with the rest of the system, everything affects everything.

TBT, my biggest fear is accidentally touching the arm close to the platter and ripping the diamond right off of the cantilever....or bending it ever so slightly. It's a risk I guess I will have to take. Just gotta be ultra careful.

Tom

jdjohn

msg wrote: »

[*] Denon 301 MKI cartridge (original, not the MKII), which I'll be mounting today (yes, @jdjohn for real this time!)

I think I see pigs flying outside...it's happening!

msg

I was thinking earlier, if I notice a significant improvement after this, I'll capture a couple of recordings directly from the phono pre into Audacity on a laptop, one with no clamping and another with center weighted and outer ring clamping.

That might be really interesting to see what those waveforms look like, as well as how the audio sounds on a warped track.

xschop

Would it be prudent to build a heating platter that re-flattened warped records?....JAT

treitz3

They already make one. We had one being passed around between members that went in on one years ago, right up until the point to where it failed. I tried to get it going again but there was not enough interest in doing so.
https://www.musicdirect.com/analog-accessories/furutech-df-2-lp-disc-flattener
Tom

xschop

Alright who plugged it into a 240v outlet?

What melt pt. do most vinyl records have?

treitz3

LOL. It was used between quite a few number of members....all of which had a plethora of LP's that needed correction. After about 2 or 3 years of rotation between members, shipping and all of the LP's that were corrected? It simply quit. I do not believe that it was built for the use it was put under.

As for the melt point? I have no clue. The Furutech gets nowhere close to that point. What you need to be more worried about is the temperature at which the sound gets compromised within the grooves themself. Beyond that, it really doesn't matter what the melt point is.

Tom

xschop

Whatever melting point is, go 100 deg below it on an oven with a record between two silicon pads and aluminum plates...

BlueBirdMusic

Guys, some really good info in all of these posts. Enjoyed!!!

jdjohn

Melting point would be disastrous since technically that's when it turns to liquid. What's more important is at what temp it becomes soft enough to bend and warp, which is about 140F. We all know that temperature can easily be reached in an attic in the summer, and of course that's how many old record collections get ruined if stored in an attic.

The lowest temperature setting of most standard ovens is around 170F, so that's not really an option.

I have one of these, called a Vinyl Flat: https://www.vinylflat.com/products I will be honest and say it is tricky to use since the heating pouch is basically a Sunbeam heating pad folded in two, and only has Low/Med/High settings, so hard to tweak. You have to find the right combination of temp and time in order to have successful results. It comes with a digital probe thermometer so you can monitor the temp. I found that around 150F for two hours is about right, but I can't be held responsible! Too low a temp and too short a time doesn't fix a warp, and of course too high for too long is [cough] not good. I've ruined a couple by leaving them overnight when I forgot the **** thing was on...got distracted...too much tequila. Putting the heating pouch on a timer is recommended!