I found this to be interesting in the whole cable debate....

Joey_V

I found this interesting thread last night on AVS. It was about some guy Randi who wanted to prove that cables don't make a lick of a difference, and they had organized some sort of a million dollar double blind test.

I think (correct me if I'm wrong), one of the potential guests would have been Mike Lavigne, the big audiophile with MM7 and dartzeel. At the time, he had Transparent Opus speaker wire. They wanted to a/b it against monster z2 speaker wire.

So before the big blind demo, they organized a preliminary blind demo at his house.

The results were interesting.

Here are the threads:

The Opus review a year prior:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/361257-transparant-opus-cables.html#/topics/361257?page=2&_k=7zqfkd
The initial thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/918365-james-randia-s-attack-high-performance-audio-59.html#/topics/918365?page=1&_k=7j3cq3

The pre-game:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97675

The post game:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/#/topics/941184?page=1&_k=ybtp4j

Joey_V

This makes me want to blind test the WELs.

I agree that blind testing is not a normal way of listening and the positive differences we hear during sighted become mixed into a cesspool of doubt.

I was blinded to a speaker comparison and I got the correct answer 3/3 at the end. But during the beginning when I was not familiar with the testing and the odd listening scenario, I was 0/2.

muncybob

Interesting read. I doubt I'll ever have a high end system to worry about the differences really "high end" cables can make, but I do agree that there are differences in cables. In the end though, all that testing is only applicable to that system, right? Granted, it appears that system is very detailed and so differences in those cables should be more apparent than say in my very modest rig...or not?

In the end, the one thing I'll take away from all this is the quote by Duke Ellington that said something like, If it sounds good to you, then it is good. Of course we will still wonder if it could sound better I guess.

muncybob

I guess I don't know how to use the italics properly

tonyb

Eh, I don't find it interesting at all. Same mumbo jumbo on just about any audio site. You can find many views and opinions on if cables matter or not. The only opinion that needs concern is yours.

heiney9

AVS is a horrible example of open mindedness.............or lack thereof.

H9

gce

I was thinkin I'd see X.

Joey_V

Yeah but I find it interesting that he could not tell the difference between opus and monster. You'd figure if it had enough of a difference that he would.

heiney9

Joey_V wrote: »

Yeah but I find it interesting that he could not tell the difference between opus and monster. You'd figure if it had enough of a difference that he would.

Those azzhats over there will never claim to hear a difference even if they do!!! All amps sound the same, cables don't matter and all cdp's sound the same.

H9

tonyb

Joey_V wrote: »

Yeah but I find it interesting that he could not tell the difference between opus and monster. You'd figure if it had enough of a difference that he would.

To be fair Joey, not everyone can, and that's not anything new in this hobby. You just did a test yourself with what....3 or 4 different cables. You heard the difference yourself, but now you feel a need to second guess yourself because you read opposite opinions on the internet ? If you read about someones opinions negatively on your speakers would you be running to swap them out ?

I've learned long ago not to pay attention to all the naysayers, even the one's who gush positively about a piece of audio gear. Get what sounds good to you and forget about others who want to poo-poo everything you do or buy.

treitz3

Posts like yours Joey is what starts the cable naysayers to come out of the wood works. Randi this, Randi that. We recently had a very nice discussion for once about a Polk forum member's journey after he discovered for himself what the differences can be.

All this does is spark the cable debate all over again and it draws folks from AVS over here to nay say anything and everything an observer may share about their experiences. It tends to thread (RaP every thread where folks may want to come and learn, to share their experiences and post their own thoughts along their own personal audio journey when it comes to cables.

I don't know you from Adam but I have read a post or two of yours and to be honest, I thought you were better than this. The rest of us who have been here for years and years know all of the comebacks, Randi articles and videos and that Monster has been "proven" to be the same as zip cord and to be honest?

It's nauseating because folks from both camps chime in, articles are linked, videos are provided, folks argue about the McGurk effect, graphs are presented which provide the fuel for more arguments, things get heated and in the end, folks get banned and nobody wins.

If you notice, none of the long timers are chiming in to comment. We've been there, done that, got the t-shirt and don't wish to ever go there again. It's frankly a wasted effort.

FWIW, Mike L and myself have taken Randi up on the challenge. Then the rules change and it has been found the test is rigged for the user to fail. Just email Randi and ask him after you accept the challenge that you want to use your system, that you don't want to use his system and see what his answer is. You will quickly learn that the rules all of a sudden change. Want another demand or change in the test protocol? No can do. He will not budge and the kicker is that you have to go to him and on your dime.

As an aside, I do hope that the newer members of Club Polk take these links with a big grain of salt. It's your choice and I will not sway you one way or another. I could Frankly care less what stance you want to take but......BUT.......I will say this. If you take what these links have to say with an open mind, then it will behoove you to take the possibility of cables making a change for the worse or better with the same open mind.

Empirical evidence means a lot but so does you testing cables for yourself.

We are better than this.

Tom

txcoastal1

Well said Tom

mhardy6647

That would be "The Amazing Randi".
He's made a side career of debunking things.
No comment on the titular "thing" of this thread -- but there was much talk about this years ago at audioasylum.

an example, offered strictly "as-is" and FWIW.

http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=general&n=511870&highlight=amazing+randi&r=&search_url=/default.mpl?searchtext=amazing+randi&b=AND&topic=&topics_only=N&author=&date1=&date2=&slowmessage=&ip=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&sortRank=Forum&forum=ALL

txcoastal1

I found this response humorous

"In the grand picture It's not that outrageous. You would better spend your time venting your anger on such absurdities as why a piece of cardboard with Wayne Gretzky's picture on it just sold for almost a half million dollars. Stuff like that is the real obscenity."

rpf65

Personally don't see much of a difference between blind testing, and knowing what product is being tested. Personally I would hope, in this particular case the less expensive cable would sound better. Could save a boat load of money.

The argument of scientifically proven something sound better is pretty much a load of ****. Just as anybody saying it isn't possible to hear a difference is just foolish. The argument of somebody saying I can prove it reminds me of gravity.

Newton discovered the theory, and it worked pretty much everywhere, except the orbit of Venus. That planet never showed up where the math said it should.

Venus was fixed by Einstein, and everything else was where it should be, according to the math, until we found the sub-atomic level of stuff. Einstein wasn't even close to explaining, mathematically, how things behaved.

If gravity hasn't been proven, how can somebody prove or disprove cables effect the sound of anybody's gear?

If it something that you wish to prove to yourself personally, I'm sure you can find a volunteer to come to your house, and switch cables behind a curtain or something. Especially if you offer to buy the beer.

littlewoodboats

I agree with you Tom. As someone new to the whole "cables matter" discussion I am confident that were you to swap cables in our system Melody can hear the difference where I might not. I have said this to Unkle Jesse more than once but the worse my hearing gets the more critical clear sound becomes. Muddy sound becomes a hodge podge of conflicting noise to my ears.

This whole thing remind me of the "all amps sound the same" debate. All I can say about that is listen to a proper amp sometime.

My new/used MIT Shotgun cables constitutes the years fritter funds so expendutures of this nature are not taken lightly. Had there been no benefit the new cables would already be for sale.

Melody has made it clear the new speaker cables are here to stay. I defy anyone to fool her on our system.

P.S. to @F1nut as much as I really wanted to believe you just had more money to spend than us and you were an MIT shill. I get it now. The longer I listen the more detail I notice. Clarity is critical for those of us losing our hearing.

Call it synergy if you will but to my ears I call it better sound. Has anyone ever done a double blind test using the hearing impaired?

Joey_V

treitz3 wrote: »

Posts like yours Joey is what starts the cable naysayers to come out of the wood works. Randi this, Randi that. We recently had a very nice discussion for once about a Polk forum member's journey after he discovered for himself what the differences can be.

All this does is spark the cable debate all over again and it draws folks from AVS over here to nay say anything and everything an observer may share about their experiences. It tends to thread (RaP every thread where folks may want to come and learn, to share their experiences and post their own thoughts along their own personal audio journey when it comes to cables.

I don't know you from Adam but I have read a post or two of yours and to be honest, I thought you were better than this. The rest of us who have been here for years and years know all of the comebacks, Randi articles and videos and that Monster has been "proven" to be the same as zip cord and to be honest?

It's nauseating because folks from both camps chime in, articles are linked, videos are provided, folks argue about the McGurk effect, graphs are presented which provide the fuel for more arguments, things get heated and in the end, folks get banned and nobody wins.

If you notice, none of the long timers are chiming in to comment. We've been there, done that, got the t-shirt and don't wish to ever go there again. It's frankly a wasted effort.

FWIW, Mike L and myself have taken Randi up on the challenge. Then the rules change and it has been found the test is rigged for the user to fail. Just email Randi and ask him after you accept the challenge that you want to use your system, that you don't want to use his system and see what his answer is. You will quickly learn that the rules all of a sudden change. Want another demand or change in the test protocol? No can do. He will not budge and the kicker is that you have to go to him and on your dime.

As an aside, I do hope that the newer members of Club Polk take these links with a big grain of salt. It's your choice and I will not sway you one way or another. I could Frankly care less what stance you want to take but......BUT.......I will say this. If you take what these links have to say with an open mind, then it will behoove you to take the possibility of cables making a change for the worse or better with the same open mind.

Empirical evidence means a lot but so does you testing cables for yourself.

We are better than this.

Tom

No I'm not trying to spark something, I just found the whole thing interesting.

The only reason I posted was because I can sympathize with Mike Lavigne... Recently my experience was that I was able to a/b my speaker against the one above it, I heard a subjective difference very clearly.

Then we decided to blind test me.

And I failed the first 2.

It was crazy, I didn't know how that happened.

I got the next 3 right as I knew how to play the game after.

But with Mike Lavigne, it sounds like he just failed the test itself.

I guess what I'm trying to say is doing a blind test is not easy... And that's from experience.

I am interested in blinding myself with my 12g vs my WEL after reading his experience. I doubt I would change my mind though about how good the WELs are.

heiney9

Blind tests are not designed for audio discrepancies.

DK did several posts including his conclusions in a scientific paper, of why double blind tests as currently administered don't work well for audio.

H9

Joey_V

heiney9 wrote: »

Blind tests are not designed for audio discrepancies.

DK did several posts including his conclusions in a scientific paper, of why double blind tests as currently administered don't work well for audio.

H9

This is why I posted the thread originally @treitz3

To get the opinions of a crowd that I trust more than the AVS gang.

Joey_V

rpf65 wrote: »

Personally don't see much of a difference between blind testing, and knowing what product is being tested. Personally I would hope, in this particular case the less expensive cable would sound better. Could save a boat load of money.

The argument of scientifically proven something sound better is pretty much a load of ****. Just as anybody saying it isn't possible to hear a difference is just foolish. The argument of somebody saying I can prove it reminds me of gravity.

Newton discovered the theory, and it worked pretty much everywhere, except the orbit of Venus. That planet never showed up where the math said it should.

Venus was fixed by Einstein, and everything else was where it should be, according to the math, until we found the sub-atomic level of stuff. Einstein wasn't even close to explaining, mathematically, how things behaved.

If gravity hasn't been proven, how can somebody prove or disprove cables effect the sound of anybody's gear?

If it something that you wish to prove to yourself personally, I'm sure you can find a volunteer to come to your house, and switch cables behind a curtain or something. Especially if you offer to buy the beer.

Totally I agree.

Harry Pearson said:

If something measures good and sounds good, it is good.

If somethig measures bad and sounds good, you're not measuring the right parameters.

As you can see tom @treitz3 , I'm in the cable camp and that's where I firmly stand and after doing my own blind, I can see how someone can fail it even if the differences are real.

And Tom @treitz3 , you say "we are better than that".... Doesn't preclude us from having a discussion. I see nothing that makes us any better by not willing to discuss audio topics that we find interesting.

littlewoodboats

heiney9 wrote: »

Blind tests are not designed for audio discrepancies.

DK did several posts including his conclusions in a scientific paper, of why double blind tests as currently administered don't work well for audio.

H9

DK had a thread he had started then had closed discussing testing methods. He was debating someone who was a proponent of double blind tests. The guy kept using the term "trained listeners" but when I asked he could not give an answer to what it meant to be a "trained listner".

I just want to listen.

treitz3

It should be common knowledge on this board that anytime Randi comes up, interest goes down and arguments go up. Nobody wins.

This is not interesting.

It's simply bad for the forum and for those who would like to find out more about user experiences with different cables. Randi is old news.....but I have a feeling you knew this already. Hhe has been shoved in our face and down our throats every year, usually 3-5 times a year for the past 20 years. He's simply not worth discussing anymore.

Tom

treitz3

Hi Littlewoodboats. If the "trained listener" poster was Amir? Pay him no mind. He's an internet troll and got banned from participating on at least 2 known forums and removed from the admin team on another. He'll be banned from another forum in the summer. Mark my words.

His version of a trained listener is highly laughable.

Tom

F1nut

There's really nothing to discuss. There are those that don't, can't, won't and those that can. End of story.

mdaudioguy

F1nut wrote: »

There's really nothing to discuss. There are those that don't, can't, won't and those that can. End of story.

You forgot do and will.

ken brydson

Joey_V wrote: »

treitz3 wrote: »

I am interested in blinding myself

My mom told me masturbation was effective...

lightman1

F1nut

mdaudioguy wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

There's really nothing to discuss. There are those that don't, can't, won't and those that can. End of story.

You forgot do and will.

Thank you, Ed.

Joey_V

ken brydson wrote: »

Joey_V wrote: »

treitz3 wrote: »

I am interested in blinding myself

My mom told me masturbation was effective...

Lol

Joey_V

But seriously, reading this thread has confirmed my suspicion about dbt

mdaudioguy

F1nut wrote: »

Thank you, Ed.

No problem!