Damn it........... Cables matter!!

BlueFox

The thing that gets me about the RA cables on my Pass XP-20 is they just carry DC and ground between the power supply and preamp. I bet if one measured both cables their multimeter would show 12v and 5v DC each time (or whatever DC is being used). Yet the RA cable makes a very obvious sonic improvement. LOL. A great example of how cabling can effect audio. I wish I was in college again. This audio cable conundrum would be a great PH.D. subject.

F1nut

Agreed Bud and additional proof that measurements do not tell all.

crashb4

So i got to thinking. The original jumpers are kinda weak (top) and probably should be replaced. Sooooo......... a nice 10 Gage jumper can't hurt(bottom). We'll give this a rip.

tonyb

I'm sure they'll do better, but normally the jumpers should be of the same brand/quality as your speaker cables. For instance, if you had single runs of MIT speaker cables, you'd use their jumpers, which is almost like buying a bi-wired cable. If you use different branded jumpers, your not getting the full effect of the speaker cables.

crashb4

Didn't know that. I will look for AQ jumpers. I figure these have to be better than what was there for now.
Thanks.

tonyb

I'm sure they are better than what you had in there, but without the AQ jumpers your not transferring that same sound signature to the top half of your speakers. See what I'm sayin' ?

Nightfall

I really should get some MIT jumpers. The only thing I had on hand I could use when Larry dropped off the SDA's was rat shack speaker cable.

erniejade

@F1nut @BlueFox would that work on my Joule bewteen the power supply and the preamp?

BlueFox

If it uses a straight through DB-25 connector then it would work. Whether it sounds better or not is unknown. Google Revelation Audio and see what they offer. They will make custom cables if they know the connector type and pin out.

erniejade

Thanks I will check them out. Its funny I never thought about upgrading that cord until I saw you talking about it here but, it makes sense. I have Cardaa going to the power supply but the stock cable from the power supply to the Lap-150A

F1nut

Bud is right, Brad will custom make a cable(s) for you. Mine are a pair of SpeakOn and the other is a 5 pin connection.

Joey_V

I tried to avoid the who jumper ordeal because it's near impossible to find the exact cord for the speaker cable in question. For example:

Audioquest jumpers are psc+ in hyperlitz, however it is not silver as the wel nor is it same gauge as the wel nor is it DBS like the wel.

So I was very specific about looking for a biwire version at the speaker end (called single-biwire).

But that goes to show you the pain of even the jumper.

crashb4

Yes I do. The hunt is on.

crashb4

tonyb wrote: »

I'm sure they are better than what you had in there, but without the AQ jumpers your not transferring that same sound signature to the top half of your speakers. See what I'm sayin' ?

Yes I do. The hunt is on for new jumpers.

CH46E

I used to work a a Audio Quest retailer and got a very good discount on them. I have always been pretty happy with my AQ Diamond Backs. I also have Type 8 CV speaker cables but since my room redesign I cant use them anymore

Marrow Audio seems to have some good reviews on thier power cables.

I have already ran a new 10 guage line from the box to a outlet for all the equipment.

treitz3

crashb4 wrote: »

MIT interconnects arrived today. Got a chance to do a little listening tonight. Immediate impression: further clarity in upper end frequencies. Most notable however is that the cymbals have moved from the background and are now front and center. Their clarity is remarkable. I also hear much greater depth in vocals with heavy reverb. It's much easier to hear and is very clear. All in all, a nice improvement.

Hello again, crashb4. Now that you have had some time with them, albeit not much, have you noticed any further change? Is it subtle? More of the lower notes shining through with less congestion? More impact? Mid bass clearing up a tad bit more? Top end a little clearer?

Do any of the aforementioned sound better or are they a tad bit mixed or even worse than your initial impressions?

Tom

crashb4

The MITs are still providing the clarity that was noted earlier. Overall detail is excellent. The largest improvement came from the AQ speaker cables. The addition of the 10 Gage jumpers reduced some of the low end punch but it is still quite good. I believe that an amp upgrade (looking at Krell) is in order and will help with this. I run my preamp dead flat at all times. Prior to my latest electronics, I used to run an equalizer in my systems. No need for one now. What is more remarkable than the details that I hear and didn't know were there is the things that i thought were there but weren't. I have found that using the EQ allowed me to alter the sound into something that it wasn't. It was hard to get used to listening to actual recordings. Sometimes it's like listening to a song for the first time. I still have a ways to go with my equipment but i think that i am headed in the right direction. Thanks to everyone here. Your experience and advice is a tremendous help.

pitdogg2

crashb4 wrote: »

The addition of the 10 Gage jumpers reduced some of the low end punch but it is still quite good.

Get better spades. Those in the picture are terrible. I have used them, I had a set of 10 I gave to others to try and all came back and told me the same thing. In a nut shell they took away for the signal. I'd bet the original jumpers pass better signal.

[Deleted User]

Yes, cables matter.
The questions really are, how much, which ones matter most, and
what are you willing to spend to get them.

crashb4

rednedtugent wrote: »

Yes, cables matter.
The questions really are, how much, which ones matter most, and
what are you willing to spend to get them.

That is the $64K question. Looks like a lot of trial and error. What's worse is that replacing a piece of electronics can render previous selections useless. Used cables for my budget. They can be had for as little $0.10 on the dollar. Plus they are already burned in. Much more palatable than new retail.

crashb4

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Get better spades. Those in the picture are terrible. I have used them, I had a set of 10 I gave to others to try and all came back and told me the same thing. In a nut shell they took away for the signal. I'd bet the original jumpers pass better signal.

What did you replace them with. The current spades actually fit on the larger Polk posts.

treitz3

crashb4 wrote: »

The addition of the 10 Gage jumpers reduced some of the low end punch but it is still quite good.

Okay, thanks for answering. Your statement here has me a little confused. Please allow me to clarify what it is you are trying to say. I can think of two possibilities.

The first is that even though they are a thicker, supposedly "upgraded" set of jumpers, the sound has been hampered for one reason or another. If this is the case, lose them. Adding a deficiency to your rig should never be allowed in my opinion. Even if the loss is slight. Forward, never backwards I say.

The second is this. I have seen people who have observed a "loss of mid-bass" before with cables. In this case, this possibly might not be a bad thing. Hear me out. There have been instances to where folks get a different cable or amplifier, perhaps a different sub and they somewhat share the same observations as you might be trying to tell us about. A "loss".

The loss you *may* be experiencing *might* just be a more accurate reproductive effort. With the loss of an overponderance of upper bass and mid bass frequencies, their may be a loss of what you are describing BUT with that comes less of a "mask" to those and overall frequencies. This will add texture to voices, subtle nuances to things you are familiar with or even things that were previously masked by the overponderance.

If this is the case, listen to some tracks you are intimately familiar with. Does the new jumper offer more musical information to come through....or is it literally as described, a true loss?

If it's a loss, my advice would be to get rid of it and look elsewhere for an actual improvement or be happy with what you had. If it's the second possibility, listen to some music and decide whether or not the changes offer more than what you previously heard. Only you know your system and that is up to you to decide.

I will say this, many seasoned audiophiles will hear a Magico speaker for the first time and think that the bass is "light". Well, it most certainly is not. What they are experiencing is for the first time, cabinet resonances that are now gone. They are getting a more "pure" reproductive effort with noises that are omitted. Goinf from a Legacy Audio speaker to a Magico (for instance) may be a bit of a shock because they have gotten used to hearing cabinet resonances over the years and they are not used to Magico's almost nill cabinet resonances.

Another example would be someone who has owned a Cerwin-Vega speaker for many years. Then they walk into a store and experience a B&W speaker for the first time. They may comment, "Where's the bass?". Oh, it's there but it is bass that they are not used too. They have been accustomed to hearing cabinet resonances, "boomy" bass and low end, slow thumps for so long, this is what they expect bass to sound like.

'Knaw mean? Like I said, only you will be able to know this as we can not listen to your rig. I just wanted to share with you some possibilities so you can make your own decision as to whther or not the jumpers are a good choice to keep or get rid of as fast as Rosie O'Donnell wanting to take you to where the magic happens.

To the rest of the Polk Audio forum, it sure is nice to communicate and share experiences without the usual anti- cable crowd coming in and polluting the thread. It's refreshing to say the least.

Tom

heiney9

treitz3 wrote: »

To the rest of the Polk Audio forum, it sure is nice to communicate and share experiences without the usual anti- cable crowd coming in and polluting the thread. It's refreshing to say the least.

Tom

The main instigator in those efforts is no longer allowed the privilege of being a member here. It is refreshing!

H9

tonyb

Well stated Tom, in the end though I don't think much of us chase the "accurate" reproduction as much as we just simply cater to our own preferences.

An example of that is some love that boom-boom a car audio system can have and want to replicate that in their home systems. Certainly not accurate, put pleases the owner. Extreme example, but personal preferences to me anyway hold sway over what is truly accurate or not. As long as you like what you hear, rock on.

crashb4

Honestly.... I haven't had the listening time to determine the exact nature of the change. Initial impression was a reduction in punch, but i haven't put ears on it for long enough to truly evaluate the overall sound. In the next few days i will spend more time with some of my go to tracks and do some critical listening. I agree that one is not to settle for a change that is not better. I will scrap the jumpers in a heart beat if the results are not positive. Thanks for your input treitz3. I feel the same way about moving forward.

pitdogg2

crashb4 wrote: »

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Get better spades. Those in the picture are terrible. I have used them, I had a set of 10 I gave to others to try and all came back and told me the same thing. In a nut shell they took away for the signal. I'd bet the original jumpers pass better signal.

What did you replace them with. The current spades actually fit on the larger Polk posts.

I replaced with quality banana's. Those spades unscrew from the bottom correct? The spade is gold plated zinc the bottom is all zinc and that is where the signal starts.

There are much better spades out there search and you will find. Audioquest, Cardas to name a few.

crashb4

pitdogg2 wrote: »

I replaced with quality banana's. Those spades unscrew from the bottom correct? The spade is gold plated zinc the bottom is all zinc and that is where the signal starts.

I believe that you are correct on these spades. I will check them and spend some more time with them. If a spade replace is a no go, i will scrap them.
Thanks.

crashb4

crashb4 wrote: »

Honestly.... I haven't had the listening time to determine the exact nature of the change. Initial impression was a reduction in punch, but i haven't put ears on it for long enough to truly evaluate the overall sound. In the next few days i will spend more time with some of my go to tracks and do some critical listening.

OK. Got some time with the new jumpers. I have found that during the installation, I inadvertently moved the right speaker four inches closer to the side wall and three inches further from the back wall. Doesn't seem like much, but it's a big deal with these speakers. I find placement with the SRS is even more critical than with my SDA-1a. So i spent about thirty minutes making sure of placement of both towers including plumb and sat down for a good listen in a dark room.

The initial impression of reduced bass punch actually seems to have been a muddying of the bottom end from the proximity to the side wall. Also, the proximity to the back wall upset the low end balance left to right and reduced overall response. All in all, The punch was back with better overall low end detail than previously.

That being fixed, here is what I heard. Vocals on all tracks were firmly planted dead center in the sound stage. Only exception was on echoes / reverb that extended to the edges of the sound stage and helped to define the size of the venue / studio. Note that it did not define the size of my room. Lead guitar was generally near to the vocals but did move through the space and was a bit behind. Rhythm guitar had the biggest variation generally living on the very edges that extended well beyond the speakers. Percussion was a real surprise. The drum kit was center rear most, but I could get a sense of the kit size as individual drums and cymbals held their place throughout the recordings and reinforced a sense of width and depth. Keyboard was off to the side and forward and varied from recording to recording, but was easy to locate. I need to pay more attention to mastering engineers. I believe that one could determine who did the recording with enough listening.

My current room is rather small, so the edge of the sound stage wraps around to the sides. It's kind of novel, but i am looking forward to a longer speaker wall to get a better sense of width. Track list for the session is: Argent - Hold your Head Up, Billy Idol - Flesh for Fantasy, Cliff Richard - Devil Woman, Hollies - Long Cool Woman in a Black Dress, Niel Young - Cortez the Killer, Peter Gabriel - Sledge Hammer, Red Rider - Lunatic Fringe, Huey Lewis, I Want a New Drug, David Essix - Blue Jean Baby Queen, The Flys - Got You Where I Want You and America - A Horse With No Name.

My cable experiment has produced results far beyond my expectations. A decent system has become a very good one. Once the crossovers are done, I expect to have an excellent sound system.

Last note. For 30 years i have been a music enthusiast. Now I am an audiophile, thanks to the experiences and advice from you all, an open mind and a willingness to move up to quality equipment.

crashb4

Impressive read on this subject. This may help some get a better understanding of the design goals and considerations that relate to cable manufacturing.

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf

[Deleted User]

^^^