HT Dialogue SQ Journey

set271

Hello my friends at Polk Audio!

Well, I thought to just start a thread and see if anyone had some time to chime in and offer some assistance.

What I'm after is, High Quality Home Theater Dialogue.

My Room:
1. 16ft Ceilings (Great Room)
2. 22'L x 16'W
3. Distance from front of (Center-Most) Seating to Front of Center Channel Speaker: 10'
4. Center Speaker is sitting on 24" high entertainment center facing seating area directly.

Current Equipment:
2. Receiver: Yamaha RX-V373 (5 Channel, ~41W RMS x 5 at 8 Ohm - All Channels Driven)
3. Center Speaker: Polk CSi A6
4. Front L/R and Rear L/R Speakers: Polk TL2
5. Subwoofer: Yamaha YST-FSW150 (Compact Powered Bookshelf Sub) sitting on Auralex Isolation Foam Pad

Receiver Setup:
1. I have the center Channel maxed at +10. Front L/R at +2.5. Rear L/R at -2.5.
2. EQs are set to Flat.
3. Crossover w/ Sub set to 80hz

Issue:
I've incrementally been improving the SQ in our simple HT system. My first upgrade was going with the Polk TL250 HT Speaker Set. Then, to try and improve dialogue SQ, swapped out the center channel speaker with the Polk CSi A6.

That was actually a nice upgrade, but I'm still not satisfied and am wondering if the CSi A6 is underpowered (current receiver running ~41W RMS).

Does anyone have a recommendation as to the next upgrade? Here were some things I was going to try next:
1. Purchase a 7.1 HT Pre-Amp Processor
2. Purchase a 5 channel Amplifier
3. Upgrade the Front L/R TL2s to Floor-Standing Units (Any recommendations as to what matches the CSi A6?)
4. Abandon the CSi A6 for a more premium center channel speaker?

My wife and I still occasionally have a hard time hearing low end male voices on our current setup. I think this is around the 100hz range. Is it we just need more power to the CSi A6? Or maybe a different Polk Center Channel Speaker would offer more in this range?

What would you do next?

My max budget for the next round of upgrades is around $1800.

Thank you for your help!

stangman67

The center is absolutely underpowered. But don't replace, it is a fantastic HT center.

Me? I would pick up a beefier receiver, and upgrade your fronts to rti-a5's or rti-a7's. Your receiver does not have preouts so just adding an amp won't work. Accessories for less has great deals on refurbed receivers. Something like a Denon avr-x4000 or marantz 7008 would be perfect and would really wake up the speakers.
I have a Denon avr-x4200w running the older brothers of the rti-a series and they sound fantastic.

And after that, you would still have some money left over to pick up a better subwoofer.

stangman67

Couple receivers at a few different price points to take a look at that will wake up that center and run a pair of rti-a5/7's without a problem. The pioneer has a better amp and atmos capability, the denon does not have atmos and is only 7.2 but will also drive the speakers at a lower price point. The Marantz is the "best" out of the bunch but at a higher cost.

Going refurbished will save you a bit of money and Accessories 4 less has proven to be a great retailer.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx4000/denon-avr-x4000-7.2-ch-x-125-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/pionsc87/pioneer-elite-sc-87-9.2-ch-x-140-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html

Marantz
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marsr7009/marantz-sr7009-9.2-ch-x-125-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html

set271

Thanks, stangman67.

All, thoughts on the Yamaha RX-A860 and a 3 channel Power Amp for Fronts & Center?

Yamaha RX-A860
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamrxa860bl/yamaha-rx-a860-7.2-ch-x-100-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html

Any recommendations on a 3 channel Amp?

ZLTFUL

Adcom GFA-5503, Parasound A31, (not a fan favorite here but I have had good experiences myself), Emotiva XPA-3...B&K, etc, etc

rpf65

Those TL 2's are too small for a room that size.

Seems like people understand the importance of the center channel for dialogue, but don't understand that the front two are also important. The signal for dialogue isn't isolated to just the center channel. Nobody really knows what percentage it is, that depends on the sound engineer. Probably safe to say that 60-80 percent is going to the center, but very rarely will 100 percent of the dialogue be directed at the center.

I would strongly recommend that you upgrade your front 2 to at least the RTI A3's, unless you and especially the wife, are comfortable with floor standing speakers. I really don't think that adding an amp is the best option. Although i do think you need a better amplifier. The Yamaha that your looking at is a good choice, but I strongly suggest looking at replacing the front two also.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Polk-Audio-RTiA3-CHERRY-2-Way-RTi-Bookshelf-Speakers-PAIR-/361542425875

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Polk-Audio-RTiA5-CHERRY-2-Way-RTi-Floorstanding-Tower-Loudspeaker-EACH-/361827101450

Didn't see any black listed, but Polk may have some available. You'll have to call and ask, if that's the color you prefer. Either will be a less expensive upgrade, and I think a better improvement than adding the amp. That AVR willhave adequate power to drive either of those speakers.

stangman67

The rx-a860 is a fine receiver. I had one for a bit but got ride of it for my current Denon. The rx-a860 would be a good candidate to add a three channel amp to, although I'd recommend keeping it simple with just a receiver that can handle everything

tonyb

I agree, speakers are a bit small for the room size, not the center though. Your receiver turned up to +10 is taxing that center channel also which is why it sounds flat.

Get a better receiver, the one you mentioned should work way better. Get better fronts, RTIA 3'S or 5's....or better. Move the smaller TL'S to surround positions. Get a better subwoofer too while your at it, way too small for that room. Lastly, better cabling on the front 3 speakers, that will help voices become clearer also.

As a side note, some movies are simply voiced that way where dialog is hard to hear at lower volumes, not much one can do about it.

set271

All, thank you for your suggestions.

Thank you all too for confirming the dialogue is mixed into the Front L/R channels and is also dependent on the source mix which is basically infinite across all the various sources, and titles out there - ouch - I thought the dialogue was isolated to the center. Always more to learn!

I'm leaning towards the following:

1) Receiver: Yamaha RX-A3060BL or Pioneer SC-LX801 (I have some Apogee Home Studio Products using the Sabre32 DACs, and love how they sound - I noticed these receivers also have those DACs, I can only imagine that a HT receiver w/ that DAC would be a great thing).

2) New Front L/Rs: RTi A5 (Would anyone recommend that the receivers noted above suitably run a CSi A6 Center, RTi A5 (Front pair) and TL2 (Rear pair)?)

*I've already blown my budget* - it's OK.

3) New Sub (Need to research)

rpf65

Your speakers will run fine on either AVR. The A5's are a good choice.

Subwoofer look at SVS, HSU, Rythmik, Outlaw, and Power Sound Audio. All are good speakers at a reasonable price. All except SVS can only be bought through direct purchase, company's website.

set271

After doing some more research, it looks like my AVR selection will be primarily feature based instead of power based. I'm now looking at getting a refurbished Yamaha Aventage RX-A830 for $350 (2013 Model of the current RX-860). For the AVR, I don't need Wireless, Bluetooth, Streaming, Cell Control, Atmos, and quite a few of the other technologies for the $800-$2000 price tag.

Next, I'm adding a 3 channel power amp. Need more research, but minimum 200W RMS All 3 Channels Driven 8ohm and from what I've seen a low noise floor is very important for me.

Finally, getting new Front Speakers. With the increased power from the Amp, and savings from the AVR, I should have a lot more options here. Open to recommendations. I know this is a Polk forum, but I was going to branch out and take a look into the Focal Chorus 726.

mrloren

your money and people on this site like to help you spend it. me I live in SoCal so I have to watch it on my hobie spending. I would not get an amp just yet, I would more or less work on your sound stage first.

Do you have a Fry's near by? Call them and see if they have RTi8 in stock, the are cleaning them out @ $99 a pop. it will match your center too. RTi8/RTiA5 are awesome HT speakers and not bad on music

you will need a good Sub or you will still be missing some of the low end of the center.
http://hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk5HP.html

If this system is going to doing mostly HT duty RTi speakers are great.

I just went from a Sony ES beast receiver to this Marantz. http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marsr5010/marantz-sr5010-7.2-ch-x-100-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html Marantz is better on movies and matches the Sony on Music.

Speaker wire, I was once told on this site to call Doug. One 5 minute call and I had 25 feet of this cable sent to me http://douglasconnection.com/Furez-10-AWG-2-Conductor-Speaker-Cable-Raw-FZ102.htm great cable for the price. Monoprice 12 or 14awg will do good for your surrounds.

Surround speakers either get some RTi4/RTiA1 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Polk-Audio-RTiA1-BLACK-2-Way-RTi-Bookshelf-Speakers-PAIR-/391442110945 for the rears and FXiA4/6 for the sides http://www.ebay.com/itm/Polk-Audio-FXiA6-BLACK-RTiA-Di-BiPole-Surround-Speakers-PAIR-/391495773565


This setup will run you some place between $1900-$2200 depending on shipping and front speakers.

rpf65

You may want to slow down a little.

RTI A series speakers were mentioned because of your center channel. They're timbre matched, built to work harmoniously.

You want the front three timbre matched so that when, for example, dialogue, the speakers blend together so that you don't isolate a speaker. if you listen to your current set up closely, and concentrate a little, you'll probably be able to hear each individual speaker. Reason is they're not timbre matched.

Not saying you shouldn't try other speaker brands, but just another thing you should consider.

Going back to you're original post, dialogue and over all sq improvement. The RTI A5's, $560 a pair. Yamaha RX A830, $350' and finally a different subwoofer. An SVS PB-2000 is $800, and may be a little small for that size room. The one you have is definitely too small, and there are a lot better subs out there. Anyway your total will be slightly over $1700, which is within you original budget.

Polk RTI series are good speakers for HT. Are there better; yes. Many people think there not very good for music. There are a lot better out there for that application. If you want to go with a different brand, you'll should replace the front three. You may find a few, on other sites, that think this doesn't matter, but they've probably never heard a properly set up HT system.

Question is; what is it you're looking for. An HT specific system? How much do you watch tv and movies, listen to music, and gaming. Have you heard speakers you like, and as always your budget. Type of music you usually listen to will also be helpful.

Never heard the Focal speakers you mentioned, but do own the A5's. Very good speakers for HT, and they are exceptionally good looking, especially at this price point. Quite a few out there better for music, but not even close in the looks department, at least in my opinion, again in this price range.

Originally heard them on a lower end AVR, can't even remember which one. Preferred them over the A7's, but that was because the A7's were under powered. Didn't know that then, but understand that now.

Last thing you may want to consider. Many people make the same mistake. They try to make changes too fast. They make a lot of changes to solve one problem, only to find out that they now have 2 or 3 issues now. Then try to correct those problems, with a lot more changes, and you get the point.