Lsim707

Hi there

I am curious what everyone is running to power their lsim707's? Power amp/pre? /if your using a DAC.

Reason I am curious is I am running azur851w (x2) in mono bi-amp. With the azur851e (pre) and the azur851d (DAC).. and honestly it seema like my speakers don't start sounding good until I turn it up around -40 - -33 or so.. which is decently loud.

I just feel they're not getting enough power?

Currently with how the 851ws are setup they're pushing 200w to the top and bottom.
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Comments

  • polk500
    polk500 Posts: 1,171
    Hello and welcome,

    That's strange as you have a great setup, I have the 705 and driving than with 200 watts and they sound great and from what I've read the 707 are easy to drive.

    Have you tried other wiring options? Some people think (bi-amping) sending 200 watts to the tweeter-midrange is a waste of power and without an external, crossover it does little to improve the sound, I agree as I've tried and the results were negligible.

    Perhaps wire than direct with the jumpers in place and let the internal crossover work as designed and see if you notice an improvement.

    Cheers
    R
  • Something seems odd. I typically power my 705's with my 600wpc Emotiva monoblocs, but with all of our holiday guests (kids) I have moved the amps out in favor of my ATI 120wpc amp. The 705's sound a bit different with the ATI but still very beautiful. For that reason I do not think power is the problem.

    In my experience if they are not sounding good until it gets loud then noise is contributing more than it should, so you may need to upgrade your source or cabling. If you are using any sort of power conditioner, don't.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • @polk500 thanks! No I haven't tried running them direct. If I do that my power amps will be pushing 500w(to each speaker) in mono mode. I will have to try it, also maybe upgrade to a better quality wire.

    @jeremymarcinko
    My source right now is a laptop. But I have also used my Xbox. Ps4 and computer tower. When I run either of my computer systems I use a USB cable (carbon brand $180 CAD) and for when I have used my other systems for source I plug in with a optical cable.

    I am however running 2 big monster power (paper weights) avs2000ss for conditioning/stabilization.

    If I had access to better source I would do that. But haven't been able purchase a cd player or vinyl
  • And it's not that they don't sound good until that volume. (Sorry I should've been more detailed) they just seem quiet. I don't get any background noise or anything come through.. it's just doesn't seem "magical" until it's a bit louder... my plan was to get 2 more azur851w's. And run 500w to the top end and bottom end per speaker. But I'll have to try direct with just single mono per speaker.
  • polk500
    polk500 Posts: 1,171
    Try the wiring direct as I had mentioned, before you buy more amps as you could take that money and invest in cables/wiring???

    You really don't need more power 500 watts is more than enough for the 707, As I think the bi-wiring may be the problem.

    And as jeremymarcinko suggested don't use the power conditioning.

    Cheers
    R
  • @polk500 how should I plug my equipment in? What do you use?

    Well right now the power amps push 200w set in mono bi-amp. But I will have to set it to just bridged mono I believe. And then it'll be 500w direct. I was wanting 4 power amps to do 500w to the top end and low end.

    Right now for speaker cable I'm using monster power 18 or 16g it was around $150 cad retail for 1 pair.

    Power cable on the power amps and rcas will it make a big difference? And with that changing out to hospital grade plugs be beneficial?
  • polk500
    polk500 Posts: 1,171
    Hello,

    So first I made a mistake I meant bi-amping not bi-wiring in my last post, although It's not true bi-amping even though manufacturer calls it bi-amping. I would suggest looking up bi-amping and you will see it's a fairly involved process on the net and getting your read on.

    So what I would suggest is putting the jumpers back on your speakers as you must have taken them of to bi-amp and just run one set of speaker cables from each amp as I'm assuming you ran two sets to bi-amp.

    As I had already said you don't need that much watts to the tweeter and midrange let the 707 internal crossover distribute the power and I think you may fine your speakers sound fantastic.

    And that's how I have mine wired currently with a parasound 1500a although I did try bi-wiring for a while.

    Cheers
    R
  • Get some larger gauge speaker cable while you're at it.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • @jeremymarcinko what gauge wire would you suggest?

    How do you guys plug in your equipment? Straight into the wall?
  • polk500
    polk500 Posts: 1,171
    For the Amps most definitely if you can, I put in 3-20 amp lines in my Media Closet a bit of over kill but hey I done it myself and it was cheap. But I will say 20 amp wiring is harder to work with as it's a heavy gage wire.

    Cheers
    R
  • @polk500 I have looked up bi-amping, it's the reason I want 4 amplifiers.

    I do think they sound incredible already. Just more when their in a certain volume. But yes I hear what you are saying snd will try a direct connection.

    thank you for the help
  • Yeah 0 gauge can be a bit of a pain to work with for sure!
  • polk500
    polk500 Posts: 1,171
    cvernon36 wrote: »
    @polk500 I have looked up bi-amping, it's the reason I want 4 amplifiers.

    I do think they sound incredible already. Just more when their in a certain volume. But yes I hear what you are saying snd will try a direct connection.

    thank you for the help

    Excellant I've read true bi-amping with external crossovers is a whole other level of Hi-fi
    Please keep us posted on your thoughts and impressions.

    Cheers
    R
  • Okay so I'm having issues now.
    I'm kinda stumped on what it is and not 100% sure what it could be at this point.

    Anyways I am getting a very loud humming coming through my system. I have triple checked to make sure everything has been hooked up correctly. But I have no idea. My manual for the azur851w's say to make sure my rcas aren't defective but it still plays music and whatnot. I am connected to a laptop. And a separate hard drive. Through my DAC. My DAC does have ground/lift on it. When I "lift" the ground a big portion of the volume of the hum goes away. But it's still there. When I have it grounded which is what I've always had it on with 0 issue. It never hummed. And let me tell you it's loud. Scared to even turn up the volume to much. But I did with the volume low on my music player (vlc) just to be sure sound was coming through and it was.

    @polk500
  • polk500
    polk500 Posts: 1,171
    Bummer, what changes did you do?
  • cvernon36
    cvernon36 Posts: 33
    edited December 2016
    I changed everything to run it direct like we had talked about yesterday.

    I just tested my amplifier by un plugging the rca from the amp and I think it's my rcas. When I unplug them for the amplifiers the speakers stop humming.
    @polk500
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    cvernon36 wrote: »
    I changed everything to run it direct like we had talked about yesterday.

    I just tested my amplifier by un plugging the rca from the amp and I think it's my rcas. When I unplug them for the amplifiers the speakers stop humming.
    @polk500

    Not necessarily. The RCA's will just carry the hum from another piece. What you did was to disconnect the signal to the speakers all together. I'd get rid of all the Monster stuff, speaker cables and RCA's/digital cables. Make sure your amps are set back to stereo and not mono. If your using bare ends on speaker wire, make sure no strands are touching another post on the speaker or amp posts.

    You have nice gear, they deserve better cabling.....and don't waste your money buying more amps, your not even using hardly enough from the 2 you have.
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  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,776
    polk500 wrote: »
    For the Amps most definitely if you can, I put in 3-20 amp lines in my Media Closet a bit of over kill but hey I done it myself and it was cheap. But I will say 20 amp wiring is harder to work with as it's a heavy gage wire.

    Cheers
    R

    Pffft....sissy.




    <3
  • cvernon36
    cvernon36 Posts: 33
    edited December 2016
    tonyb wrote: »
    cvernon36 wrote: »
    I changed everything to run it direct like we had talked about yesterday.

    I just tested my amplifier by un plugging the rca from the amp and I think it's my rcas. When I unplug them for the amplifiers the speakers stop humming.
    @polk500

    Not necessarily. The RCA's will just carry the hum from another piece. What you did was to disconnect the signal to the speakers all together. I'd get rid of all the Monster stuff, speaker cables and RCA's/digital cables. Make sure your amps are set back to stereo and not mono. If your using bare ends on speaker wire, make sure no strands are touching another post on the speaker or amp posts.

    You have nice gear, they deserve better cabling.....and don't waste your money buying more amps, your not even using hardly enough from the 2 you have.

    Thank you for the help.

    So far right now I've gone and purchased some balanced cables. And am going to try and reinstall everything tomorrow.

    I have to keep the power amps in mono mode as I want to make them push 500w. In the manual it calls for 1 switch to go from stereo to mono and another switch from bi-amp to bridged, and another switch from balanced to unbalanced(depending on rcas or not).

    So tomorrow when I read do everything. I am going to re run every wire. I have to keep the monster speaker cable(bi-wire- gold tip plugs) for now. But I am going to get new speaker cable when I can.
    I'm keeping the switches in mono mode, bridged and balanced.
  • polk500
    polk500 Posts: 1,171
    lightman1 wrote: »
    polk500 wrote: »
    For the Amps most definitely if you can, I put in 3-20 amp lines in my Media Closet a bit of over kill but hey I done it myself and it was cheap. But I will say 20 amp wiring is harder to work with as it's a heavy gage wire.

    Cheers
    R

    Pffft....sissy.




    <3

    How did you know B)
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    edited December 2016
    Don't run your amps bridged mono as it raises the noise floor.

    You sure as heck don't need mega watts on the top end as the tweeter will use 5, maybe 10 watts maximum. The rest of that power is completely and totally wasted.

    As for cables, forget gauge and forget generic type cable. However, I don't think that is your main issue. Power amps are not all that different than a car's power train. There's a power band where they perform best. You seem to have found yours, but that's not to say it can't be improved by such things as better cables, a better source, dedicated lines, etc.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    Just found a problem with your rig.
    I am however running 2 big monster power (paper weights) avs2000ss for conditioning/stabilization.

    Those Monster things choke the sound and have to go.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Cambridge audio calls for it to be ran in bridged mono when running 2 azur851w's.

    I'm thinking it's cross interference on the cables.

    Probably doesn't help that I'm using bi-wire to wire it up direct because I don't have regular speaker wire.

    I purchased some balanced cables today. And tomorrow I'm going to tear everything apart and reinstall and set everything up again.. hopefully it'll solve the issue.
  • All of this is so odd though with the hum. I never had issues with that prior to today when I changed my setup from bi-amp to direct.
  • I'll be getting rid of them as soon as I can sell them now lol! And then I'm gonna look into a high grade style power bar. I looked into it today at a electronic store and it's around $1500 for everything that's needed.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    So what, you are getting about a 4dB increase in SPL at the great expense of raising the noise floor by going from 200wpc in stereo to 500wpc in bridged mono.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    The hum is likely a ground loop issue. Try plugging the amp into a completely different circuit than the rest.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    I looked into it today at a electronic store and it's around $1500 for everything that's needed.

    What are you looking at?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • I can't remember the name of the power bar. I could find out and let you know.

    I am running 2 (two) of the azur851w 's.. the only way to properly hook them up to the speakers when running Two of them is to run the power amps in bridged mono mode. Exactly what's in the manual otherwise you can hook them up to the speakers. Or you run them in mono bi-amped. Or if u run 1(851w) to 2 (two speakers (regular stereo) you just run them in stereo... if your having trouble with what I'm trying to stereo search up the manual for a "azur851w".

    I am running 2 azur851w's, 1 azur851e, 1 azur851w, everything was hooked up in bi amped mono. So I was getting 200w to the top end frequencies and 200w to the low end. And today I changed it to run direct. (Not bi-amped.)

    So I hooked up the cable on the binding posts. And got the speakers ready for running mono bridged. Then I changed the physical switches on the back of the power amps to reflect what Cambridge audio says it has to be set at to run 2 power amps in mono otherwise I would have to remove one power amp and just run my system in regular 2 check stereo.

    And then when I was done hooking everything up. When it turned on my pre amp and DAC and power amps the speakers started humming really loud.

    So then I turned the volume off to mute and it still persisted. Then I unplugged my rca cable from the pre-amp. And it cut to about half the volume of hum. Then I plugged it back in. And unplugged the other end of the rca cable from the power amp, and immediately the hum stopped. And that is what had let me to believe it is more then likely either a faulty rca cable or cross interference.
    So then today I went out and bought 2 sets of audio quest red river XLR cables. And tomorrow am gonna unplug and move and clean and reinstall everything to reflect what I am trying to achieve and hopefully the hum will stop once I have the cables ran differently.

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,708
    I not having trouble understanding what you're doing. You don't seem to understand what I saying to you, so good luck.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk