Sub Dilemma (HT) Have psw505

stangman67

Funny as it is, I sold off almost all my HT gear last month because I had lost interest. Then during black Friday I really wanted to grab a bigger TV as my 50" was just too small for my liking. After doing some cost analysis of a 65"(or bigger) TV, I bought a BenQ 1080p projector and 120" screen for less than the cost of a 65" 4k panel.

Naturally I couldn't have the projector in my man cave without a basic audio setup. So I built a basic home theater setup with parts I had mostly sitting in the garage.

Yamaha rx-a840
Monitor 40's for the front
Monitor center
Fxia4 surrounds
Psw505 sub

For a pieced together setup, I am very happy with how it all performs, except for the bass category. The single psw505 just doesn't have the output required for real ht involvement. I Find the overall output lacking and also a lack of low-frequency feel in in your bones response. I do listen to music from time to time downstairs, not critically but for party type environments and I do not find output adequate in that situation either.

So I am at a crossroads, two options. Buy a second psw505 for 180 off Amazon. Unsure if this is going to get me where I want to be though as low frequency punch won't really improve. Obviously, output would gain significantly though for a minimal investment. Other option is to go with something like a pb-2000 or hsu vtf-3. This seems like the best performance option but I am all about price vs performance. Is the extra 600 or do spent on the svs or hsu worth it over another psw505? I can swing another 505 right now but would have to wait awhile before going the other way.

Thanks!
Zach

rooftop59

Don't bother with a second psw. Save your pennies for an svs or hsu. This is one of the very clear improvements you can make where the money is very well spent...

rpf65

The 2 Psw 505's will probably put out more mid-bass volume, 40 to 80 Hz than a single HSU or SVS. I don't think it will be that much, maybe a dB or so.

No way the 505's will dig as low as either of the other subs. The HSU and SVS will get to 20Hz, the 505's maybe to about 25 Hz, on a really good day.

That's the choice. Dig lower or play louder.

rooftop59

rpf65 wrote: »

The 2 Psw 505's will probably put out more mid-bass volume, 40 to 80 Hz than a single HSU or SVS. I don't think it will be that much, maybe a dB or so.

No way the 505's will dig as low as either of the other subs. The HSU and SVS will get to 20Hz, the 505's maybe to about 25 Hz, on a really good day.

That's the choice. Dig lower or play louder.

Not true based on measurements or how two subs work. Adding a second sub will add about 3db boast, essentially doubling the volume.

Here are ed mullen's measurements of the psw505:

Frequency SPL THD
20 Hz 65.5 dB 10-12% fluctuating
22 Hz 68.0 dB 10-12% fluctuating
25 Hz 76.0 dB 10.4%
32 Hz 90.2 dB 10.5%
40 Hz 101.5 dB 10.2 %
50 Hz 104.1 dB 9.8%
63 Hz 105.9 dB 10.1%
80 Hz 103.8 dB 10.2%

And here is a measurement of the hsu vtf-5:

The VTF-3 MK5 HP was exceptionally flat from 18 Hz to 180 Hz tracking at +/- 5 dB across this range...tested the limits of the subwoofer at 32 Hz. It is generally understood that 10% THD+N is the threshold of audibility for distortion in the bass. In the case of the VTF-3 MK5 HP the speaker hit 126.5 dB while remaining under 10% THD+N.

126db at 32hz!!!! That absolutely crushes the psw505. You would need a pint 8 psw for the same output! And the bass wil Ben much smoother, more controlled, and even across the frequency range.

It's just not even close. Save ur pennies!

tonyb

Don't get another 505, pony up for the SVS, don't look back.

VoodooGTS

Hey Zach, sorry to be a little of topic, I have the same subwoofer and similar AVR. Yamaha RX-A760. Are you able to control the subwoofer frequency(Hz) on the AVR? For some reason I can only control the Center, R/L front and rears.

Is that normal? Still kind of new to all this.

Thanks.

rooftop59

VoodooGTS wrote: »

Hey Zach, sorry to be a little of topic, I have the same subwoofer and similar AVR. Yamaha RX-A760. Are you able to control the subwoofer frequency(Hz) on the AVR? For some reason I can only control the Center, R/L front and rears.

Is that normal? Still kind of new to all this.

Thanks.

When you set the other speakers crossover frequency, you are controlling the sub. E.g. if all your other speakers are set to small 80hz, then below 80hz is going to your sub, in addition to all of the .1 (lfe) frequencies.

Some avrs will also give you the option to select a high-pass for the sub (as in everything above, say, 120hz will go to the mains and not the sub), but this is a much rarer option.

VoodooGTS

Thanks for explanation Rooftop59 really informative.

One more question, sorry to butt in the topic. My AVR supports two SUB outs. If I connect two subs using LFE to the AVR Sub1 and Sub2, will the AVR (Yamaha RX-A760 recognize it and show up as a 5.2? Just curious to try to run two different subs since I have a extra one laying around from my old set up.

Thanks!

stangman67

Yes when it goes through the ypao setup, it will sense both subs and account for them. I can control the sub frequency on mine i think but let ypao handle it all.

Thanks for the input on the sub situation, I knew in my gut saving and doing the HSU was the best option so that is what I'll do. The single 505 rumbles enough that I don't need an immediate upgrade anyhow

Btw, I am so glad I got a projector. I got my BenQ ht2050 set up today, the picture is fantastic, really indiscernible from my 50" 1080p led tv. So much more immersive and fun to watch too, all for less than a grand! Unbeatable if you have the right conditions

tonyb

VoodooGTS wrote: »

Thanks for explanation Rooftop59 really informative.

One more question, sorry to butt in the topic. My AVR supports two SUB outs. If I connect two subs using LFE to the AVR Sub1 and Sub2, will the AVR (Yamaha RX-A760 recognize it and show up as a 5.2? Just curious to try to run two different subs since I have a extra one laying around from my old set up.

Thanks!

We usually don't advise using 2 different subs. Both will have different speeds of attack and decay which will make the lower bass sound funky. If you use 2 subs, make them the same.

rooftop59

tonyb wrote: »

VoodooGTS wrote: »

Thanks for explanation Rooftop59 really informative.

One more question, sorry to butt in the topic. My AVR supports two SUB outs. If I connect two subs using LFE to the AVR Sub1 and Sub2, will the AVR (Yamaha RX-A760 recognize it and show up as a 5.2? Just curious to try to run two different subs since I have a extra one laying around from my old set up.

Thanks!

We usually don't advise using 2 different subs. Both will have different speeds of attack and decay which will make the lower bass sound funky. If you use 2 subs, make them the same.

I would agree with Tony here, mainly because your AVR just has an internal splitter, so the same signal is getting send to both subs. If your avr has any SUB EQ (which i don't think it does) it will be applied to both subs, and the result will not be good. I think some really high end AVRs can run seperate eq on both subs, but that is rare.

I will tell you what you can do with that sub depending on it connection options. I currently have a nice musical little sub that has speaker line level ins and outs and a high pass of 80hz, so I run my center channel through that sub, and set the center to full range. It sounds awesome! I have done this with two different setups, and it greatly enhances the movie watching experience. It really is true that most movie soundtracks come through the center channel, and that includes lots of pounding action in that kind of movie. Many scenes in the Dark Knight have that little sub pounding, and it really helps anchor the dialogue to the screen.

VoodooGTS

Hey Rooftop,

So rather running my center channel (Polk CS10) to my Center AVR I should run it to my sub (PSW505) line out and set the subwoofer dial to 80hz?

So does that mean my center channel does both vocal and bass?

Thanks.
Sounds interesting to try.

rooftop59 wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

VoodooGTS wrote: »

Thanks for explanation Rooftop59 really informative.

One more question, sorry to butt in the topic. My AVR supports two SUB outs. If I connect two subs using LFE to the AVR Sub1 and Sub2, will the AVR (Yamaha RX-A760 recognize it and show up as a 5.2? Just curious to try to run two different subs since I have a extra one laying around from my old set up.

Thanks!

We usually don't advise using 2 different subs. Both will have different speeds of attack and decay which will make the lower bass sound funky. If you use 2 subs, make them the same.

I would agree with Tony here, mainly because your AVR just has an internal splitter, so the same signal is getting send to both subs. If your avr has any SUB EQ (which i don't think it does) it will be applied to both subs, and the result will not be good. I think some really high end AVRs can run seperate eq on both subs, but that is rare.

I will tell you what you can do with that sub depending on it connection options. I currently have a nice musical little sub that has speaker line level ins and outs and a high pass of 80hz, so I run my center channel through that sub, and set the center to full range. It sounds awesome! I have done this with two different setups, and it greatly enhances the movie watching experience. It really is true that most movie soundtracks come through the center channel, and that includes lots of pounding action in that kind of movie. Many scenes in the Dark Knight have that little sub pounding, and it really helps anchor the dialogue to the screen.

rooftop59

VoodooGTS wrote: »

Hey Rooftop,

So rather running my center channel (Polk CS10) to my Center AVR I should run it to my sub (PSW505) line out and set the subwoofer dial to 80hz?

So does that mean my center channel does both vocal and bass?

Thanks.
Sounds interesting to try.

rooftop59 wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

VoodooGTS wrote: »

Thanks for explanation Rooftop59 really informative.

One more question, sorry to butt in the topic. My AVR supports two SUB outs. If I connect two subs using LFE to the AVR Sub1 and Sub2, will the AVR (Yamaha RX-A760 recognize it and show up as a 5.2? Just curious to try to run two different subs since I have a extra one laying around from my old set up.

Thanks!

We usually don't advise using 2 different subs. Both will have different speeds of attack and decay which will make the lower bass sound funky. If you use 2 subs, make them the same.

I would agree with Tony here, mainly because your AVR just has an internal splitter, so the same signal is getting send to both subs. If your avr has any SUB EQ (which i don't think it does) it will be applied to both subs, and the result will not be good. I think some really high end AVRs can run seperate eq on both subs, but that is rare.

I will tell you what you can do with that sub depending on it connection options. I currently have a nice musical little sub that has speaker line level ins and outs and a high pass of 80hz, so I run my center channel through that sub, and set the center to full range. It sounds awesome! I have done this with two different setups, and it greatly enhances the movie watching experience. It really is true that most movie soundtracks come through the center channel, and that includes lots of pounding action in that kind of movie. Many scenes in the Dark Knight have that little sub pounding, and it really helps anchor the dialogue to the screen.

Speaker cable from avr to sub input (doesn't matter rather its right or left on sub, just be consistent). Speaker cable out of sub outputs to center channel.

The sub probably doesn't have a high pass filter, so just set the crossover to whatever sounds best, probably between 60-80 hz.

Also, make sure center is set to large in the avr.

Now the sub and center in combination will handle vocals and all the explosions and special effects that are sent through the center channel.

VoodooGTS

Gotcha, will give this a try and see how it performs.

Thanks.

VoodooGTS

@rooftop59 I forgot to ask when I do this set I am not using coax cable thats form the AVR to subwoofer correct?

Thanks.

rooftop59

I am assuming that you are running one coax out from the sub preout to one sub. This second sub has not coax, just speaker cable coming in it from the center channel output, and then into the center channel

VoodooGTS

I get one your saying now when running two subs. Okay I will give this a try.

Thanks.

mrloren

This is not much and will totally best that 505

https://www.amazon.com/SVS-SB12-NSD-400-watt-Controlled-Subwoofer/dp/B009F8Y7SO/ref=sr_1_3?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1481384797&sr=1-3&keywords=svs\

cfrizz

I just purchased one as a Christmas gift to myself. I couldn't pass up the price and I'm finally replacing my broken Boston sub.

polrbehr

cfrizz wrote: »

I just purchased one as a Christmas gift to myself. I couldn't pass up the price and I'm finally replacing my broken Boston sub.

Nice!! Did you get the DSW 550 for $399. ?? That is one heck of a deal for a sub that
will surprise the daylights out of you. No exaggeration.

cfrizz

No I got this.

https://www.amazon.com/SVS-SB12-NSD-400-watt-Controlled-Subwoofer/dp/B009F8Y7SO/ref=sr_1_3?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1481384797&sr=1-3&keywords=svs\

stangman67

Thanks for all the opinions again. I've thought long and hard and I am going to build a DIY soundgroup 15" ported sub kit. Dayton RF HO sub and BASH 500 watt amp. One at first, maybe a second later on

mrloren

cfrizz wrote: »

No I got this.

https://www.amazon.com/SVS-SB12-NSD-400-watt-Controlled-Subwoofer/dp/B009F8Y7SO/ref=sr_1_3?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1481384797&sr=1-3&keywords=svs\

Let us know how that sub is. My HSU works great, I was thinking of upgrading next year.

rooftop59

mrloren wrote: »

cfrizz wrote: »

No I got this.

https://www.amazon.com/SVS-SB12-NSD-400-watt-Controlled-Subwoofer/dp/B009F8Y7SO/ref=sr_1_3?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1481384797&sr=1-3&keywords=svs\

Let us know how that sub is. My HSU works great, I was thinking of upgrading next year.

Which hsu do you currently have? Might not be an upgrade...

stangman67

Triple post wow!

stangman67

Triple post wow!

stangman67

Thanks for all the opinions again. I've thought long and hard and I am going to build one of these (at first, maybe 2 in the future

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/ported-subwoofers-1/15-cube/dayton15-cube-kit.html

rooftop59

stangman67 wrote: »

Thanks for all the opinions again. I've thought long and hard and I am going to build one of these (at first, maybe 2 in the future

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/ported-subwoofers-1/15-cube/dayton15-cube-kit.html

I would look carefully at the specs on that compared to the specs on a comparably priced HSU or SVS. I am all about saving money, but its actually very difficult at this point to beat those guys, even DIY. Its because 1. everything is designed to go together (box, driver, amp), and they both put some pretty serious DSP/EQ into their offerings (higher end for HSU). In order to match the low distortion AND low extension of those subs, you will and expensive external DSP/EQ. At that point you will spend as much or more than you would on this for instance: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk5HP.html

Just something to think about...

stangman67

I did quite a bit of research. It was between the DIY kit and the VTF Mk5. It wasn;t really about the money. The HSU seems like a mighty deal at the price and I am sure it will outperform the DIY kit to some extent. The think I like about the DIY kit is it is a proven design (Martysub micro), has a quality Dayton driver (I have used dayton extensively in the past in car SQ setups). Really the deciding factor is the fun I am going to have putting it together and the satisfaction at the end. I am positive it will blow me away as the response graphs are fairly similar to that of the HSU sub.

And saving a bit of a money in the process doesn't hurt anything either.

rooftop59

stangman67 wrote: »

Really the deciding factor is the fun I am going to have putting it together and the satisfaction at the end. I am positive it will blow me away as the response graphs are fairly similar to that of the HSU sub.

We if that's the case and you will save a little coin then more power to you. I am all about saving money, but at this point in my life with jobs and kids if the savings is pretty small and I am not getting much (or any) benefit from the build then I just can't justify it. But when I was at a different place in life my thoughts were different!

Good luck and be sure to post pics when you are done!

cfrizz

Let's hope real life gets in the way of you finding the time to build the sub. That happens more often than not and what you had planned never occurs.