Receiver as a pre-amp volume level still -20db max?

pkquat

I have a Yamaha HTR 5960 ('06) that I got for the right price that I use for general HT listening, and was / is my convenient 2Ch preamp to drive SDA 1C's or other speakers. It always has been used as a preamp, connected to either my Hafler DH-220, Krell 300i, or now as a bypass through a Parasound P5 / Model 2250 combo.

For DTV, MTV2 or AXS concerts, I find that if I want to jam out to them I need to go past -20. Hovering around -30 is normal listening. These stations seam to be a slightly lower level than others. Some BD's can hover around -20 sometimes too. If I want to jam some 2Ch I found -10db -0 possible too without risk of bottoming any MW's.

My DH-101 preamp (only connected for a short while) would likely cause MW damage if I reached noon. The same is true for the P5. I think the same was true for a Sony SDP-E800.

I can understand an HTR's amps having issues going over -20db. Can the same be said when they are a pre-amp. Maybe the pre-amp section is a little tired? Are there any tests to check the output levels or get a rough idea without a scope?

I got to thinking and compared the output specs between all. There is no standard .

HTR5960: Output Level 2V, Output Impedance 1.2kΩ
Hafler DH-101: "rated at 3V", 7V max
Parasound P5: Input Sensitivity 300mv: 1V Out, Total Gain: 10dB, Maximum Output: 7V, Output Impedance 100Ω
Sony SDP-E800: Output Level 1V, Output Impedance 1kΩ

heiney9

Depends on the impedance match between receiver and amp and the gain the pre has. So, to answer your question.....depends.

There is no hard and fast rule across different components.

Try it and see, experiment.

H9

Emlyn

A receiver's preamp section should have no issues going up to 0 dB assuming the individual speaker level settings are not in the positive range. It has the gain built in to handle up to that level without significant distortion. Things may get dicey above the 0 dB level as distortion can increase quickly. Different sources often have different apparent volume levels, including between different channels on cable or satellite and even programming on the same channel. There should be an input source trim setting for volume in the receiver which can be used to somewhat equalize the volume levels of different components. It's a convenience setting but I wouldn't use it if there is one. Just adjust the volume according to the source material, but stay clear of going above an adjusted 0 dB level.

tonyb

heiney9 wrote: »

Depends on the impedance match between receiver and amp and the gain the pre has. So, to answer your question.....depends.

There is no hard and fast rule across different components.

Try it and see, experiment.

H9

This ^^^
Impedance mismatches often occur between gear, cables, speakers....it's not anything new and is often mistaken for a piece sounding soft or too flat. The piece usually gets the blame.

On a receiver, "0" on the volume dial can be a dangerous place to be. The rule of thumb is, always listen carefully when turning up the volume. If the music starts to sound congested, starts breaking apart or ear piercing, turn it down. Some gear, or combination of gear will always have different limitations when it comes to volume. It's up to you to decipher that by listening carefully.

pitdogg2

guys when you use a amp on the pre-outs of the receiver those numbers mean very little. Those numbers are calibrated for the amp section on of the receiver. My denon 3805 I use a carver TFM25 and if I tried to listen to something at -20 I would have to be right next to the speaker. My Carver has lighted dials that give an indication of the amps output "somewhat". When I jam out my 3805 will say Odb and the meters will be around about 30-50 watts so not even breaking a sweat. If I want to bump the meters up to say 100watts on them my Denon 3805 will say + 15 and yet that carver is still not working very hard.

My 0.2

pkquat

Thanks for all the info.

Right now I only have digital inputs hooked up to it. Thinking about it further, in theory the onboard digital amp has its own fixed output. I would think the preamp from the internal digital source would be designed with enough head room not to distort itself, but I don't know all the factors. I suspect 2V is the max output, but that seams low compared to the other preamps. If it is only 2V, I really hope it is limited on purpose, and not running out of headroom. Maybe I could get a better baseline reference comparing analog inputs.

Does alnalog input impedence effect the "input volume" to the input amp / pre-amp? Assuming two pre-amps had the same internal amplifer gain, would differences in impedence have an audible effect on the output for reasonable impedences?

This is my first reciever with a digital knob, and not much of a reference point. For information sake the max is +12.5 db. (I checked this safely from an empty digital input and the output disconnected).

dalylaleahthor

I'm no professional about impendance but I usually watch movie at -2 and listen to music at 0. My bro n law visited once when I was watching a movie and he said the neighbors might not have been able to see the movie they sure heard it. Perfect for me but to others might be too loud.

rpf65

If you haven't run your auto-cal program with the amp on, it is still using the internal amp for reference. You can save your current settings to one of the available scenes, or run in pure direct mode to by-pass the calibration settings.

Modern AVR's volume knobs aren't like integrated amps. The numbers are pretty close to being meaningless. Not saying they aren't a good reference to avoid clipping, but halfway up the scale doesn't necessarily mean your using half the available power. You may be using 35% or 62% of the available power. No way of telling.

The idea is to run the calibration program with an amp on, if that is how your normally going to run the system. Then slowly start increasing the volume. When you first start to hear distortion, look at the number. Stay 10 or 15 below that number on the scale. That's a good place to set the max volume level for an AVR.

If your ears start bleeding before you hear distortion, the numbers are even more meaningless.

tonyb

dalylaleahthor wrote: »

I'm no professional about impendance but I usually watch movie at -2 and listen to music at 0. My bro n law visited once when I was watching a movie and he said the neighbors might not have been able to see the movie they sure heard it. Perfect for me but to others might be too loud.

I hope your saving some coin for some new tweeters. lol

tonyb

pkquat wrote: »

Thanks for all the info.
This is my first reciever with a digital knob, and not much of a reference point. For information sake the max is +12.5 db. (I checked this safely from an empty digital input and the output disconnected).

IMHO, you don't really need a reference point, your ears are the reference point because too many things are involved and that can change a point of which danger occurs.

If you want to be safe with that digital dial, don't go into the "+" of the dial, I'd say be careful on anything over -10. If you do, pay close attention to the material your playing and listen very carefully like I said before.

On any volume dial, some mistaken it as usable all the way up until you bury it. That would be a mistake that will cost you money.

pkquat

rpf65 wrote: »

If you haven't run your auto-cal program...

The receiver was 2nd hand, so no mic. I reset everything, and entered surround parameters manually.

tonyb wrote: »

IMHO, you don't really need a reference point, your ears are the reference point because too many things are involved and that can change a point of which danger occurs.

If you want to be safe with that digital dial, don't go into the "+" of the dial, I'd say be careful on anything over -10. If you do, pay close attention to the material your playing and listen very carefully like I said before.

True. And that it what have been doing, and will have to continue doing. I didn't notice anything but wasn't sure if I was missing something. The surround mode add new factors, reflections for me. I tend to tune out the SL2000's at higher volumes. I also like to know I'm in a safe range so I don't have to pay as much attention. Its been a long while since I've been able to really turn up the volume, and have always been over amp'd compared to the speaker. I usually boosted the bass a little too, to make up for the speaker roll off. The 1C's are the first really full range and power hungry speaker I have had. Even so the output of the Yamaha seamed a little low, and maybe more of an exponential curve.

I've had a relative reference point between equipment using the same analog input source and my ears. So far nothing ever went beyond 50% unless the input source was really low. Most stayed in the 33% range max for normal input sources, including the P5. I've felt comfortable I've had safe headroom. Getting close to 0 and anything + feels spooky. I may swap the Sony back in for surround to get a better feel, but the processor runs soooooo hot, and lol, there is no power button on the remote.

Sidebar-
For fun, years ago, I had my Hafler DH-101 preamp and on a scope and analyzer with an electrical engineer friend at the time. I know little about EE so he took care of the technical stuff. For what it was worth, I found out for a high level, over spec. (I can't think of the correct term) analog input source, around 40-45% was the maximum gain of the amp and and when it distorted. For a normal level analog input source, 55% -65% was where distortion became noticeable. For a low 0 to ?? input it was very clean through 75%. Above that there was some additional noise. I think it was around 90% were other distortion artifacts started appearing.

In short he said the preamp has good headroom, and high output before distorting. And that most amps would distort before the preamp did under normal conditions.

Unfortunately the DH-101 needs a really good cleaning and likely a refresh. A quick deoxit run through was only a minor improvement. Over time it also picked up a varying loudness hum that I have not been able to track down.

dalylaleahthor

tonyb wrote: »

dalylaleahthor wrote: »

I'm no professional about impendance but I usually watch movie at -2 and listen to music at 0. My bro n law visited once when I was watching a movie and he said the neighbors might not have been able to see the movie they sure heard it. Perfect for me but to others might be too loud.

I hope your saving some coin for some new tweeters. lol

Should I not take it this high? I just thought that it'll be fine.

tonyb

dalylaleahthor wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

dalylaleahthor wrote: »

I'm no professional about impendance but I usually watch movie at -2 and listen to music at 0. My bro n law visited once when I was watching a movie and he said the neighbors might not have been able to see the movie they sure heard it. Perfect for me but to others might be too loud.

I hope your saving some coin for some new tweeters. lol

Should I not take it this high? I just thought that it'll be fine.

IMHO....NO. Todays HT dvd's or Blu-ray disc's can be very dynamic. A gunshot or explosion can come out of nowhere and really tax the system especially if the amp is on the lower power side. You won't have time to turn it down.

Music can also be dynamic at the drop of a hat but chances are you know the music your playing and when or if those passages may present some problems.

Like I said, when going above -10, always listen carefully for when that music soundstage starts to collapse, you get some ringing, or the distortion is easily heard. You'll do damage if you consistently play at those levels either to the tweeters or crossovers or both. Just tryin' to save ya some coin and aggravation down the road is all.

dalylaleahthor

tonyb wrote: »

dalylaleahthor wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

dalylaleahthor wrote: »

I'm no professional about impendance but I usually watch movie at -2 and listen to music at 0. My bro n law visited once when I was watching a movie and he said the neighbors might not have been able to see the movie they sure heard it. Perfect for me but to others might be too loud.

I hope your saving some coin for some new tweeters. lol

Should I not take it this high? I just thought that it'll be fine.

IMHO....NO. Todays HT dvd's or Blu-ray disc's can be very dynamic. A gunshot or explosion can come out of nowhere and really tax the system especially if the amp is on the lower power side. You won't have time to turn it down.

Music can also be dynamic at the drop of a hat but chances are you know the music your playing and when or if those passages may present some problems.

Like I said, when going above -10, always listen carefully for when that music soundstage starts to collapse, you get some ringing, or the distortion is easily heard. You'll do damage if you consistently play at those levels either to the tweeters or crossovers or both. Just tryin' to save ya some coin and aggravation down the road is all.

Thanks. Just learned something new today. Always thought that since the speaker could take the power and the amp was strong enough to drive it then there wouldn't be any damage done. I'm glad this forum is so helpful.

rpf65

Not the speaker you really have to worry about. Most speakers can take more power than a person can listen to comfortably. Put 100 watts into a 90 dB efficient speaker in an average size room, and your ears will ring for a couple of days. Chances are you will never do this, unless of course you're one of those people who like to listen to your rig while running your chain saw.

Then again this is still what TonyB is saying. Your amp/AVR will still be under powering the speakers. It isn't so much that the speakers are being played to loud, but the available power can't keep up.

Sure there are some instances where people damage speakers by over driving them, but about 50 times as many are due to under powering them.

So it is a good rule of thumb to keep the dial in the negative zone, providing you have no idea what distortion sounds like.