New tube pre-amp.......

mikeyb128

I've had my Cary a little over a month now and have been swapping pairs in and out, I just ordered my first matched quad, and will be giving them some serious time (a few weeks instead of several hours) I've been trying mixed pairs as you have, and I'm shocked the difference it can make. Although mine only uses 4 12au7's I don't have as many variations as yours. It's become an obsession. I wish it was easier to access the tubes, instead of having to crack the cover, but I've been leaving it off during the process.

heiney9

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I've had my Cary a little over a month now and have been swapping pairs in and out, I just ordered my first matched quad, and will be giving them some serious time (a few weeks instead of several hours) I've been trying mixed pairs as you have, and I'm shocked the difference it can make. Although mine only uses 4 12au7's I don't have as many variations as yours. It's become an obsession. I wish it was easier to access the tubes, instead of having to crack the cover, but I've been leaving it off during the process.

It's easy to become obsessed with finding the best sound when there are so many variations. I knew this would be the hardest part of owning a pre-amp that uses 8 tubes. Even the rectifier changes the sound. I suppose that's the double edged sword of owning tubes. Luckily when you been around it for awhile excellent tubes are excellent tubes in any pre-amp. But there's still that tweaking to get it right where you want it.

H9

MrBuhl

heiney9 wrote: »

Problem is some of my ultra rare tubes I only have pairs. Guess it's back to hunting. If I go the quad route I will be having a sell off of some singles and some pairs.

H9

Wait... That means you actually quit hunting?

heiney9

I sort of did, only holy grail and rare stuff, or the occasional super bargain. But now I'd like to get some extra pairs to make quads of the really good tubes. I have a pair of 1956 ECC82 Siemens Long Plates w/D getter that are superb (made in Munich). I'd like to find another pair..............not too many come up these days. When they do, they are very expensive. I just missed a pair a few weeks ago but that was before I go the new pre...

A few others I am completing to obtain a quad. I am always hunting, but not buying so much these days. I did get a 1956 ECC 82 Amperex Heerlen Holland long plate D getter w/foil (nos readings) for $25 shipped (BIN). It sounds fantastic!! Probably the best bargain in a long time. I see the same seller has posted more, but he has quadrupled his price. I couldn't jump on it fast enough, he had just posted it FS. Luck for sure.

H9

heiney9

Ha.....This one went up for sale in the UK and sold with in a day.

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=187313

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EndersShadow

Gotta say the clean wiring speaks to me. LOVE IT when the wiring is that neat.

It's the little details that make me appreciate gear more. Short signal paths, minimal wiring, etc.

heiney9

Yes, me too! I love popping the top to see how things are laid out and the parts count and quality. The type of pcb, solder joints, etc. This is very clean and symmetrical. I was impressed from first sight. It certainly echo’s its performance which has been superb.

I never did open the top of the BL Rhumba, sure would have liked to see what was inside and how it was laid out. Didn’t think to ask if they would mind, but I would have wanted permission since it wasn’t mine to tinker with. Maybe I’ll see if they will post some pics of the innards of the Rhumba. You can tell a lot about a piece looking inside.

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steveinaz

Sounds like someone is having a blast!

heiney9

Yes, this is fun. Pretty sure this is going to be a stopping point for me for a long time. This pre-amp is THAT good. It has everything I could want, except an HT bypass which I have no need for at all.

This thing just exudes quality, with a stunning sound to match. Just wrapped up buying 8 more tubes last night from my source in Germany. I now have several quads of my favorite variations of Valvo Hamburg long and short plate tubes from the mid 50's.

I have talked to a couple owners, one being the previous owner of my unit, and they conclude using the same tube for the 4 main 12AU7's is best. Mixing 2 different pairs of 12AU7's has given some uneven results. They said the most difference is made by rolling the 12AX7 input gain pair and the rectifier. Of course I have a ton of 12AX7/ECC83/5751's to roll. I have been buying and stashing those for the future, and the future is here....lol

I will be having fun for a long time with this one.

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heiney9

Ok, so this has been a real pain the arse. I have to remember finding "that" sound isn't going to happen over night.........it takes patience....lol.

Rolling makes a big difference in sound and having essentially 7 of the 8 tubes influence the sound, the rolling is starting to drive me batty with so many combinations. Some just flat out don't work well together.

Right now, I'm in the pocket with a quad of 1957 Valvo Hamburg, long plate, D- getter ECC82's, a pair of the superb 1959 Tung-Sol 5751 w/ horse shoe getter and a 1950 Tung Sol 6x4 (rectifier), black plate, double vertical D- getters . With a 1958 Amperex Holland ECC82, long plate, D-getter w/foil in the tube position of the EE Dac Plus.

Thinking of abandoning the tube output in the EE Dac Plus as that's a whole lotta tubes going on. I need to purchase a pair of single channel Dexa discrete op-amps if I abandon the tube output on the DAC. I already have the dual channel Dexa's in place for the tube output in the dac.

So far it's nice having a remote and I think with this pre, and the tubes being inside rather than outside the chassis, once I find that sound my rolling is going to be really limited. Sort of the "set it and forget it" mindset, as chasing umpteen tube sounds has me a little weary these days. Time to sit down and enjoy the music.......................

Atleast for awhile until I get the urge to change the presentation.

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tonyb

That's exactly the reason why I stay away from gear with too many tubes. The combinations and costs are endless. Unless your lucky enough to hit it off the bat, but how often does that happen.

Can't believe your thinking of ditching the tube output on the dac. Thought that was the selling point for you. Too warm with the pre ? Or just too many tubes between both pieces to get it right ?

heiney9

Actually Tony, according to the many reviews of the DAC, most people seem to like it without the tube (amateur Head-Fi reviewers for the most part). I am not convinced.

It's a little of both, too many tube combo's to get it consistent and too warmish at times. I won't say I'm abandoning it for good, but I find my self experimenting with the SS output more. I never did with the Mini Max Pre, I was set on leaving it all tube and it worked.

I am also frustrated because I just don't have the free time I used to have to actually sit and demo over and over. My listening has been more sporadic as we move into Spring/Summer. GF, yard, home projects, work, socializing, etc have taken over. In the past I'd spend every night for several hours listening and evaluating, etc.

I think for now I'll go SS with the DAC and when I get the Pre dialed in, then experiment with the tube output of the DAC. I can't be tweaking both at the same time. It will drive me nuts.

H9

pitdogg2

Brock sit and enjoy that sucker, sometimes it seems you are chasing your tail with all the tube chasing.

heiney9

There is a certain amount of enjoyment chasing the tubes, but I am going to sit and enjoy for awhile. I have actually become quite obsessive lately chasing down every last variation. Actually, there aren't any tubes I want that I don't have. Tying up a few lose ends as far as completing some quads, but I'm set for several lifetimes for tube stock

Time to poke my head out of the rabbit hole for awhile......lol
H9

lightman1

Now you're thinking straight, buddy! Grab a cold one and let the music settle in to your soul.

heiney9

Update:

I think I finally have both pieces dialed in. Did some listening last night, oh boy was it good!! Soundstage is completely off the charts, heard things in places that I had never heard before. Bass is almost too much at times. I need to get the rings and spikes in my SDA 1C's. Such a full presentation and female vocals are simply superb. I listened so loudly last night (without fatigue) that my ears were ringing a little when I shut her down.

There are 2 American tube companies that always seem to deliver across tube types. It goes without saying the Euro tubes (Valvo, Mullard, Amperex Holland) are all consistently superb. But Tung Sol and Sylvania have impressed me with every application. Of course I'm talking the early tubes 50's through the very early 60's. Sylvania's get a bit watered down as you move into the late 60's and especially the 70's and 80's.

The Sylvania GB series and any of the military tubes are simply superb. I was going to abandon the tube output in the EE DAC Plus simply because it seemed there were too many variables when mated with the EE Avant pre-amp. But I put in a 1959 GB JHS-5914A, triple mica, D getter and it really snapped in to focus when mated with the 8 tube Avant.

Currently the Avant has a very pricey pair of 1956 Valvo Hamburg (mC1) long plate ECC83's. A quad of 1957 Valvo Hamburg ECC82, long plate, slant D. That right there is about $700 worth of tubes on a good day. A very hard to find 1950 Tung Sol JTL-6X4 double vertical D getter, not that expensive but super hard to find.

I'm going to run these for awhile, then I'm going all Sylvania, 5751's (black and gray) and GB JHS-5814's. Then all Tung Sol, 12AX7, long black plates and 12AU7, black glass, black plate. Then all Raytheon, 5751 black plate, windmill getter and CK-5814A, black plate, 3 mica. Then Mullard ECC83 long plates w/Brimar ECC82 long plates.......

It seems my Summer willl be busy....

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heiney9

Well, this is a keeper with a capital "K". Wow does this thing perform well! Nuances and textures are better, bass is better defined and deeper. Overall a step up from the Mini Max which is still a great performer.

Tung Sol is still the most underrated tube in this hobby. The 5751 gray plates are excellent tubes, but the crème de la crème is the 1948-1951, 12AX7 black plate w/square getter (slightly bent on a short post). I could go on and on about this tube, but this really sums up my impressions. The clarity and transparency without a hint of harshness is what gets you hooked.

http://www.tubemaze.info/tung-sol-12ax7-black-plates/

I highly recommend these tubes if you can hunt them down. I was able to buy 2 pairs over the past 6 months that all measure almost new.

H9

P.s. The 1950-53 Tung Sol, 12AU7 black glass, black plate is equally superb!!!

P.s.s The 1948-51 Tung Sol 6x4 rectifier, black plate, with double vertical D getter rectifier tube is equally as impressive.

lightman1

I'm a double D fan myself.


......edit: double D getter fan

Joey_V

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I've had my Cary a little over a month now and have been swapping pairs in and out, I just ordered my first matched quad, and will be giving them some serious time (a few weeks instead of several hours) I've been trying mixed pairs as you have, and I'm shocked the difference it can make. Although mine only uses 4 12au7's I don't have as many variations as yours. It's become an obsession. I wish it was easier to access the tubes, instead of having to crack the cover, but I've been leaving it off during the process.

Tell me about it. My Cary has lots o' tubes

heiney9

So, I stumbled on this thread and skimmed the posts and I'm at a real crossroads. The tube thing has been a blast, a complete blast. And this pre is fantastic, but I'm looking for simplicity and more of a set it and forget it listening experience these days. I don't have as much time to tweak and roll tubes constantly to try and find that sound. Then when you do, it may not be the best combination for all types of music.

Thinking of moving away from tubes completely in the main rig, but they have deep hold on me when I really sit and think about it. The original plan was to keep the Avant pre and purchase a Pass XA-25 and pair them together. But that doesn't really solve the issue of me NOT wanting to continue to tube roll. And I know I will if the piece of gear is there.

My new plan is to possibly sell the Avant and Aleph 30 and purchase a Pass INT-25. Going the full simplicity route and it helps that the INT-25 reviews have been stellar. But I'm really having a hard time letting go of the tubes because I know what they *can* bring to the table. But I also know how obsessive compulsive I can be if given too many choices. And tube rolling with 8 tubes IS too many choices......

Then I'd have to "let go" of all the tubes I've hunted and bought over the years......or most of them anyway. I feel like I'd be breaking up with the tubes.

Thanks for letting me vent.

H9

heiney9

Since this is a statement piece from Eastern Electric (where are they these days) I suppose I could keep it for awhile until I'm sure I'm free of any vacuum tube influence.

I guess I don't HAVE to sell it. I always do that to fund a new purchase and take the sting away and so I don't have a closet full of unused gear sitting around w/only emotional attachment.....lol

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pitdogg2

Tubes rule!
Completely understand your dilemma.
Hit me up when you divest some of your tubes.

jbreezy5

heiney9 wrote: »

So, I stumbled on this thread and skimmed the posts and I'm at a real crossroads. The tube thing has been a blast, a complete blast. And this pre is fantastic, but I'm looking for simplicity and more of a set it and forget it listening experience these days. I don't have as much time to tweak and roll tubes constantly to try and find that sound. Then when you do, it may not be the best combination for all types of music.

Thinking of moving away from tubes completely in the main rig, but they have deep hold on me when I really sit and think about it. The original plan was to keep the Avant pre and purchase a Pass XA-25 and pair them together. But that doesn't really solve the issue of me NOT wanting to continue to tube roll. And I know I will if the piece of gear is there.

My new plan is to possibly sell the Avant and Aleph 30 and purchase a Pass INT-25. Going the full simplicity route and it helps that the INT-25 reviews have been stellar. But I'm really having a hard time letting go of the tubes because I know what they *can* bring to the table. But I also know how obsessive compulsive I can be if given too many choices. And tube rolling with 8 tubes IS too many choices......

Then I'd have to "let go" of all the tubes I've hunted and bought over the years......or most of them anyway. I feel like I'd be breaking up with the tubes.

Thanks for letting me vent.

H9

Maybe just hang on to the tube DAC if you go the INT-25 route, so you still get a little tube injection?

I suspect going all solid-state will feel rather dry after how much tube sound you’ve had. Even though Pass is the least solid-state sounding, solid-state, imo.

heiney9

The dac is staying. It's a great piece and I even upgraded the tube and SS output op-amps with discrete units. The EE Mini Max Plus dac only uses 1 tube and it really doesn't have the same influence over the output as the tube pre amp does. It's much more subtle.

I am not at all worried about the Pass INT25 being "dry"

My dilemma is mental. If I know I have infinite combinations of tube pairings, that will distract from the listening enjoyment. I'll constantly be chasing the next best combination of sound. Which is sort of what I've been doing over the years

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heiney9

I could "baby step" it. Get a Pass XA25 and run it with the current system, find the tubes that sound best and leave it alone. If I find that's not working and I'm still rapidly tube rolling, sell the XA25 and the Avant and move into an INT-25.

I'm sort of rambling and talking this out.........

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maxward

Key phrase there was “leave it alone.”

tonyb

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I've had plenty of regrets along the way doing just that.

I dunno Brock, if your looking for a SS integrated, that will sound like tubes to make your life easier, Musical fidelity comes to mind. Our old friend Skip is selling Norma products now, expensive, but maybe a used one might be hanging in the bushes somewhere. He swears by their tone and musicality.

Worried that SS may sound a bit "dry" in comparison....well isn't that why we all moved to tubes to begin with? A little more tone, musicality, soul. Personally I think your setting yourself up for disappointment because SS integrateds that sound like tubes, don't come with small price tags. Not saying it can't be done, but few and far between for reasonably priced SS gear with some tube attributes. This is why I think Musical fidelity, for the price, is a darn good place to start.

heiney9

Tony,

Appreciate the advice, but I will always own a Pass amp. Maybe that's a bit narrow minded, but I love his philosophy, integrity, personality, approach and execution. No doubt there is other great gear out there and MF is great gear, just not interested. A few Pass amps fit into my listening approach. I am a class A guy all the way and, IMO, no one does class A better than Nelson Pass.

I agree 100% about regrets of selling gear......that's why this has been such an agonizing decision. If I let the Avant go, I'll probably never see one for sale again @ only 50 being stateside. Not that it's super desirable, just the production numbers don't bode well to easily finding one again. It's a fantastic piece that plays well above its price point.

But part of it is also to get off the tube merry-go-round that seems to fit my personality (disorder ). I think with an XA25 amp I could train myself to find a good tube combo and sticking with it.....??

I'm leaning more and more towards selling the Aleph 30 (which still sounds fantastic, so I'm not even sure why I'm looking at another amp) and get something similar but completely different. I guess I just have the itch. I've had the itch before and sometimes it was lateral or even a step back. I'm acutely aware of upsetting what is already a stellar sounding rig, IMO.

I guess this upgraditis is partly because I really thought my modded 5B's were spectacular in my office rig. I replaced them with the R200's and I'm even happier with the sound. So a bit of a change-up in the main rig is probably a good thing.

I also need to look forward to possibly grabbing a pair of L800's......I need an amp that will play properly with them. Or L600's, then the amp doesn't really come into play.

I just missed (2) XA25's for sale....lol.

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newbie308

H9,
I really wish I was your neighbor, so I could absorb a small fraction of what you know about tubes! I really enjoy reading your posts and experiencing your joy or struggle with tube rolling through your words! Don't give up what you love, and keep posting your experiences, because I am sure that I am not the only one who enjoys reading about them!

heiney9

Thanks! It's been a fun journey and a great hobby. I haven't been as involved in the past few years as I once was. I will be keeping the tube pre-amp and getting the Pass XA25.

Right now I am working on getting a new streamer set-up.

H9