Vinyl Condition - Warps, Specifically; what is acceptable?

msg

Hey guys,
so being underway here in the vinyl project, I'm beginning to notice that a LOT of the albums I've picked up new are blemished in some way. Some exhibit a rhythmic grindy/scratchy/rubbing noise that can carry on through most or all of an album side. Then there are warps. I posted last summer about trying to fix an album I thought I'd warped myself - it was my first experience with a warped album - but with the number of *new* albums I've bought with a shocking number of them having warps right out of the sleeve, I'm not so sure I did the warping on that first one.

What's the deal? Is this normal these days?

What do you guys do in these situations?
What are your limits of acceptability with the different vinyl flaws?
Zero tolerance for warps?
How about blemishes?
Weird noises?
Or is it normal to just suck it up and go, "Hey, it's vinyl, it's not perfect."

Thing is, plenty are near perfect, and so it's frustrating getting the crummy ones. I'm okay with some clicks and pops, but this latest one, for example - it's mucked up and has two areas on it where it looks like cds were sitting on it! wtf? And it's warped. This was sold as new.

hochpt21

A slight warp on a new album is acceptable to me. A slight defect MAY be acceptable to me if it doesn't affect the music. A couple pops or ticks are ok, but anything beyond that isn't.

Part of it depends on how much I paid...

SCompRacer

* What's the deal? Is this normal these days?

You get what you accept. I don't mind some minor pops and clicks on old used vinyl.

* What do you guys do in these situations?

If new vinyl, it gets returned until I get a good one. Used, buyer discretion.

* What are your limits of acceptability with the different vinyl flaws?

Zero for new stuff.

* Zero tolerance for warps?

Zero for new stuff. My air bearing arm does handle some nasty warps nicely that a pivoted arm would not.

*How about blemishes?

As long as they don't cause pops or ticks.

*Weird noises?

If a thorough cleaning, including steam doesn't do it for a used record, I'll note it and try and get another with future vinyl shopping. But you can't get too carried away with steam or you will cause warping and damage issues!

*Or is it normal to just suck it up and go, "Hey, it's vinyl, it's not perfect."

Sometimes, like a good friend, you overlook the minor things for the greater good.

https://youtu.be/YYD9CIWJELc

MrBuhl

Got a buddy picker who sagely says, "acceptable condition depends on how rare it is, and how bad you want it" LOL.

I agree tho - new vinyl should be basically perfect.

Used vinyl I **try** for the best possible, but if I want it, I'll grab it till I find a better copy!

I have discovered tho, I can't really stand more than surface scratches, too much and it's just not worth it to me.

hochpt21

MrBuhl wrote: »

Got a buddy picker who sagely says, "acceptable condition depends on how rare it is, and how bad you want it" LOL.

I agree tho - new vinyl should be basically perfect.

Used vinyl I **try** for the best possible, but if I want it, I'll grab it till I find a better copy!

I have discovered tho, I can't really stand more than surface scratches, too much and it's just not worth it to me.

So true...

When I was just getting started about 8 years ago I was just gobbling up almost anything I could get my hands on.

Now, I inspect every album in the store, and unless it is a super rare or super cheap album... I'll leave it in the shop (no matter how bad that hurts sometimes) unless it is VG+ at minimum.

I remember my first few album where I said "Oh, those pops and clicks sound so cool." That quickly went away. Now I laugh when friends come over and say.."Oh, those pops and clicks are so cool." I'm like damn it..."No...they are not!"

LOL...

msg

@#$%! okay, this is what I was afraid of, and what I kind of already knew. I've got quite a few that have warps like that that seem to play fine, and some that have a loudish crack/pop in one or two places due to surface blem. I'm going to have to go try to get exchanges at my local shop for those that I am able, the ease of which will determine whether I keep doing business there. Otherwise, it's going to have to be Amazon and Discogs. Amazon's easy returns. My limited experience with Discogs so far tells me that people are not quite honest all the time in their ratings/assessments. this is gonna suck. I bought a bunch of records before I had a table going and am just now getting around to listening to them. very few have nothing wrong with them. I'll need to make notes of where the issues are before I head back to the store.

MrB - that's kinda what I'm thinking too - I want to try vinyl for a more robust relaxing experience, not to add frustration to listening, so yeah, I'm kind of leaning that way, too - gotta be good or it's not really worth it.

that's funny Paul - that's kind of where I am, though I've never quite thought the clicks and pops were cool - more just tried to convince myself that it's normal and okay. UNTIL I put on a flawless album and then the flaws gnaw at me.

On a related note - I posted up about this War on Drugs "Lost In The Dream" album a little while back that has some very noticeable distortion in some of the upper frequencies. I checked it against digital to make sure I wasn't imagining it, and it's undeniable. I contacted the label to see whether they've had any other reports of this and they dropped another copy in the mail for me today. I thought that was pretty cool. I didn't know that sort of thing happened with vinyl. Really I had no idea it could be such a crap shoot. I honestly thought that only old abused vinyl would be wrecked, not new stuff fresh from the jacket.

I read that sometimes warps happen taking them off the press, or whatever it is, before properly cooled, and also happens sometimes during the shrink wrap process.

msg

PS - Rich, that cartridge looks like a bear head

chumlie

Zero tolerance if it's new. For the price of new vinyl it best be perfect or send it back.

gudnoyez

New purchases unacceptable, I return them. when I'm shopping for used vinyl, I pull them out of the sleeves inspect the condition then hold them up on the label at eye level and check to see if it's mostly flat, if it appears to be warped I have them put it on their table, minimum warpage don't bother me, but the wobbly ones get put back. Record store day is coming up get ready.

Nightfall

gudnoyez wrote: »

Record store day is coming up get ready.

I purposely avoid record shopping on record store day. It's like going to Walmart on Black Friday, no thanks. Here's my local record store on Record Store Day, would you go?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHcnTXMZpxc

zappafan2

I feel that new vinyl is getting better, a couple of years ago you never knew what you might get. Really bothers me when I pay for a brand new record and you pull it out of the sleeve and it has fingerprints and whatever on it, I sure don't expect that on new vinyl. I don't like warps but still get them but they do not seem to bother my Technics 1200 it tracks like a beast, from my experience about 50% of my vinyl purchases from amazon have slight warpage so I do not buy from there much. I really recommend Soundstage direct, they have always delivered a top notch product to me. Used records are just a whole different animal and you just try to pick out the good ones, my other problem is that we make a lot of planned trips to Chicago or St.Louis and if I pick up something there that may be defective I just suck it up since I am so far away. Fortunately that does not happen often, I do feel things with new vinyl are improving though.

gudnoyez

Looks like a good time to me I show up a couple hours early establish my place in line make new friends talk about music with one another, get a game plan on who's looking for what help each other out on getting thier selections it's a frigging blast. The store I go to has live bands coffee and tea, plus
It's an adventure. If your not into crowds I can see your point, but going to concerts it's the same crowds to deal with I enjoy the experience.

msg

zappafan2 wrote: »

I feel that new vinyl is getting better, a couple of years ago you never knew what you might get. Really bothers me when I pay for a brand new record and you pull it out of the sleeve and it has fingerprints and whatever on it, I sure don't expect that on new vinyl. I don't like warps but still get them but they do not seem to bother my Technics 1200 it tracks like a beast, from my experience about 50% of my vinyl purchases from amazon have slight warpage so I do not buy from there much. I really recommend Soundstage direct, they have always delivered a top notch product to me.

Annnnnnnd another one from Amazon - warped.
It was a replacement for a previously ordered album, which was warped and also oddly had the imprint of a cd on it. I just realized after opening its replacement this evening, that there is a cd version of the album bundled as well, however, it's inside the jacket. dehr. This copy has that same cd imprint damage and also a This copy has a warp that gently ramps up at least 1/4". it's almost laughable, except that it's becoming a little annoying and I'm beginning to wonder if whether maybe this vinyl thing was a wise idea after all? I checked out SSD, but they're not carrying some of the more obscure stuff I'm looking for. Neither does Music Direct

RSD's - mixed feelings. seems cool and exciting and I'd definitely hit one if there are going to be some of my favorites available as RSD exclusives, but my favorite store is so small, I really can't imagine being able to get around in there and do any measure of flipping with a whole bunch of other people smelling the place up. seriously, how can more than one person flip through a row? Or is it not as packed as I'm thinking?


Just opened a brand new Cure "Disintegration" album. Got that rhythmic rubby grindy sound on quieter areas and a bunch of surface noise. Will a RCM help with this surface noise? Anyone else know this rhythmic rubby grindy sound I'm talking about? How normal is that? I guess what I'm back to is, what's normal and to be considered acceptable for vinyl? The responses have been good so far, and some, insightful. I'm still wrestling with this. I wouldn't be if I didn't have some albums that aren't plagued with these problems. Is that all there is to it? some places are better pressers than others and I'm not just having bad luck with half the new vinyl I've picked up? This is BS. Not about to give up on it, because it's still fun, but man, this is disappointing. I feel like I'm being force-fed substandard merchandise.

This music's depressing me, too.
I'm gonna go grab one of Chris Isaak's happier albums. Not "Forever Blue", though. Pretty sure that was a breakup album, which isn't the real issue there. It's mostly that I just can't play it - because it has a REALLY SHORT STEEP HOP IN IT. lol

Nightfall

Do you not have a record store? If you're going to order LPs online there are way better places than Amazon that actually know how to store and ship them properly. I'll get you a link when I get home.

msg

yeah, there are three in the area, but all kind of small, and two of them don't stock a whole lot of the stuff I'm looking for. I still have to check out the third. There may be others, but that's all I know of right now.

Thanks, be interested to look into any other places.
I've only just come across these other places since the recent bad experiences with Amazon purchases. I really had no idea it was such a crap shoot. Both the Cure and Chris Isaak albums I bought at the local shop, though. And several others that have mild warps. I bought a whole bunch before I had a table, so I still need to check them all out. I've already got several I need to see if they'll exchange for me.

So far for my list of vinyl vendors, I have:

• Acoustic Sounds
• Music Direct
• SoundStageDirect
• Music On Vinyl
• Mofi
• Discogs (if you can count that, but I've had mixed experiences there already, too)

Upstatemax

I've purchased about 20-25 vinyl albums from Amazon and only one had a warp.

I set up the exchange and I had my new, flat album in 2 days.

I can say this, I've had FAR better luck buying vinyl from Amazon than I have here...

msg

Like HERE-here?
I will say, the return policy with Amazon is completely hassle free and fast, yes. I do like that part. I don't like hassles. I've also noticed that the ones I seem to have problems with seem to come in these special album mailers. Not the standard album mailer boxes, but these cardboard sleeve things that almost remind me of those FedEx envelopes with the rip-strip. It's probably just a coincidence, though.

I think I'm going to experiment with the warm glass panes thing on a couple I can replace easily, just to see how it works and whether I can notice any difference in quality.

msg

And what about that rhythmic scrubby rubby sound in quieter sections - you guys know what I'm talking about? Some albums have it, others don't, and are nice and clean.

Upstatemax

msg wrote: »

Like HERE-here?

yes, HERE.

End of the day, I did not pay a ton for them. But I don't feel that they were in the condition described.

As for Amazon, I have not had any issue with the "Frustration Free" packaging.

Matter of fact, the one album that was warped came in with other stuff in a larger box. The replacement came in the "Frustration Free" packaging and was fine.

Do you have a record weight?

I found that they help with some slightly warped albums.

leftwinger57

New vinyl in the shrink should be perfect w/o any blemishes,warping, pops. I bought Let It Bleed off E-Bay and this LP had a A+ rating and when I got and it played like there was a dance party going on. I went ballistic on the seller and told him if I didn't get a clean/er copy it will no stars for him. His rap was his company was so big he couldn't possibly hear all the albums so his way was to visually inspect. He got my message loud and clear and sent another copy still in the shrink and I was told I can keep the beat album. Some here think pops and crackles go along w/ owning records. Oh no, not new ones or LPs rated the highest whether visual or not. At least when buying from George here you already know what to expect and for the most part he was dead to rights in his evaluation.
P-Man said I should visit PREX for all the vintage LPs I could want and check them there.
What's PREX== Princeton Record Exchange

http://www.prex.com/

msg

Upstatemax wrote: »

msg wrote: »

Like HERE-here?

yes, HERE.

End of the day, I did not pay a ton for them. But I don't feel that they were in the condition described.

As for Amazon, I have not had any issue with the "Frustration Free" packaging.

Matter of fact, the one album that was warped came in with other stuff in a larger box. The replacement came in the "Frustration Free" packaging and was fine.

Do you have a record weight?

I found that they help with some slightly warped albums.

ah man, that's a real bummer having to deal with those kinds of disappointments. I've had a couple of those, myself.

yeah, I've been reading up on the potential causes for this stuff. lots of different reasons, not sure how much is speculation. talking about poor qc in pressing operations, and handling along the way, from removal before cooling, mishandling during sleeving, storage, etc., - you name it; just mishandled. it's becoming more than just an occasional nuisance at this point, but there's not really much choice - gotta accept the risk and potential hassle of exchanges as part of the process until things get better, and do what you gotta do to get clean copies. I'm concerned that it's just becoming the norm though, and sloppiness will be here to stay.

I do have a weight. my warps are mostly edge warps.


Lew, haha, go get 'em!
good job man.
thanks for that link - I'll definitely check that out and add to the list - coupla pros like you and P-man...

Mikey081057

New should be new and not be warped... Noise should be minimal....Check your adjustments. I have seen any adjustment out of tolerance make LP's sound like garbage. Clean and check your stylus.... Protect your stylus and don't play krappy records on your stylus. Don't let kids near your TT.....:)

Nightfall

msg, soundstagedirect was the one I had in mind.

pumpkinman

@leftwinger57
Yes PREX is

Princeton Record Exchange
20 S Tulane St
Princeton, NJ 08542

msg

Just left my local shop that I dropped a lot of money in over the past few months, trying to build a little base collection of records. Most of it while I was still trying to find a table.

Response to a Chris Isaak I have trouble with after we put it on the B&O in the shop - "What's wrong with it?"
"See that warp? That first track won't even play on my table"
"Maaan, if you're not happy because of something like *that*, you might not want to be getting into vinyl."

Side A had a vicious, steep, double hop edge warp the first night I opened it, new, and listened to it about a week ago, and wouldn't track. It wasn't near as bad when I was at the store just now, like it had relaxed. Not sure what the deal was the first night.

"What's wrong with it?" (clearly not true record)
"Within the realm of acceptable"
"Weight up your tonearm"
"If you can't hear it with your eyes closed, it's fine."
"...you come in here telling me you bought a stack of records and they're all warped..." (not what I said)
"Bring your table in and we'll look at it for you."

"Are you sure you've got it down all the way?"
"Yeah, I even use a small center weight."
"Ah man, I wouldn't use one of those."

All loud enough for other customers to overhear and smirk at my questions/concern.

Puts on a 30yr old Great White album they just took in, also with some warp - "Look at this one? See? It's got some warp, plays fine. And I'd call that Near Mint."

And finally, offered, "Alright, why don't you go through what you've got and bring 'em in and we'll go over them. We'll get you out of what you're unhappy with. I know you've had some good scores here and have been a good customer. Sorry I was a little snarky there at first. I've got other audiophile guys too, and now that I know your pain tolerance, I can steer you better, and tell you what you're probably not gonna be happy with." (they often talk -ish about the "audiophile" guys, making mocking air quotes when they accentuate the word audiophile)

I felt like I was being too picky and difficult; petty. Eventually the store owner softened his stance a bit, but was first very defensive and mocking, trying to convince me it's all normal, and that my concern was absurd. Same with the clerk chiming in. I've been very open there, open to learning, too, and they know I don't have much experience with vinyl. The owner was again mocking when he asked who I've been talking to after I mentioned that my understanding is that this isn't normal quality, but not uncommon these days. If I didn't have good clean flat records I might agree that it's normal, but that's not the case at all. Easily 1/5 of what I've bought, overall, has some kind of issue, whether unusual noise, warp, or surface defect. Most others I am very pleased with.

I think I've been labeled "That Guy", and not feeling particularly welcome there without being "tolerated" as an unreasonably picky customer.

Disappointing. And I'm feeling kind of embarrassed for trying.

Oh, btw - after all that, did not offer to exchange the Chris Isaak for me.

voltz

that dude doesn't deserve to ran a record shop...I'd take them back and ask for refunds not trade ins and not go back...

Upstatemax

There is NOTHING wrong with having standards, don't be embarrassed.

If he does not, that's not your issue.

jdjohn

Sounds very frustrating. One thing I will say is that a clamp is better than a weight. The weights can cause damage to the tt drive bearings since they are not meant to have the extra weight on there. A clamp will hold things down much better. I like the Michell record clamp.

I guess I've been lucky on the warp issue...I haven't had any to speak of. But I do hate new vinyl that has distortion...grrr. It's hard to tell if it's a bad recording or poor pressing.

Nightfall

My local record store, Wax Trax, will take back visibly warped records for store credit. I wouldn't be shopping anywhere that insulted my hobby as an "audiophile". Those guys need to learn how to run their "business" properly.

soundfreak1

Maybe I'm lucky here in the Tampa Bay as there are a few local sources for used vinyl. I have no prob buying "mint" condition records averaging 6.00. To 10.00. Of course rare or some spicific records go for more. But for as much as "we" spend on our TT, cartridges ect it has never made any sense to me to buy lesser quality records. It sure makes a difference when playing!

MrBuhl

voltz wrote: »

that dude doesn't deserve to ran a record shop...I'd take them back and ask for refunds not trade ins and not go back...

Totally agree - of the couple shops that I go to around here, not one of them would pull that kind of crap - a record store owner should know better.