Cain & Cain Abbys ride again
BlueMDPicker
Posts: 7,569
Hello All!
I repurposed my HTC HMS-100 recently - forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/171287/htc-hms-100-tubes-mods - and, of course, that got the audio wheels spinning. If it sounds THAT good as a desktop/headphone amp, how would it do driving my single driver Abbys?
Since our move to the Sunshine State in 2009-10, I honestly don't remember ever having power to the Abbys. Previously, they had been driven by SEOTL monoblocks I built for them, then by monoblock chip amps. Here, they've stood, handsomely, in the MBR but I have never gotten around to doing anything with them. Today, they got their chance.
What a knucklehead! Of the 5 other sets of speakers in the house (SDA 2B Studio, Innersound Isis, Innersound Eros, Revel Gems and RTA 8) they honestly take a back seat to none. The late Terry Cain created several masterpiece speakers. Because of its simplicity, this is my favorite. Having said that, I would never have considered they could fill the huge listening space volume of my living room with such articulate sound. They use a single, crossoverless, Fostex FE 166e driver. What a pleasant surprise! Only problem now: I have to find another desktop/headphone amp.
I repurposed my HTC HMS-100 recently - forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/171287/htc-hms-100-tubes-mods - and, of course, that got the audio wheels spinning. If it sounds THAT good as a desktop/headphone amp, how would it do driving my single driver Abbys?
Since our move to the Sunshine State in 2009-10, I honestly don't remember ever having power to the Abbys. Previously, they had been driven by SEOTL monoblocks I built for them, then by monoblock chip amps. Here, they've stood, handsomely, in the MBR but I have never gotten around to doing anything with them. Today, they got their chance.
What a knucklehead! Of the 5 other sets of speakers in the house (SDA 2B Studio, Innersound Isis, Innersound Eros, Revel Gems and RTA 8) they honestly take a back seat to none. The late Terry Cain created several masterpiece speakers. Because of its simplicity, this is my favorite. Having said that, I would never have considered they could fill the huge listening space volume of my living room with such articulate sound. They use a single, crossoverless, Fostex FE 166e driver. What a pleasant surprise! Only problem now: I have to find another desktop/headphone amp.
Comments
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Cool man, the Cains had some buzz back when. You have an impressive list of speakers hangin' around, all of them great in their own ways.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Nice setup!
I never heard the Abbys but always wanted a pair. I do have pair of BLH using the Fostex 166-esr drivers. I know the magic of a single driver, x-overless sound!Polk S10, S8, S4
Polk RT8
Polk Monitor 7s
Working on getting SDAs -
One of the Northern New England vacuum tube gurus had a pair -- in his kitchen. Driven by an MC-225.
I recall them as fun and snappy but a tad too aggressive for my taste (and the 225's not an aggressive sounding amplifier). I think they use the FE-166E drivers, yes?
In terms of TQWTs, I (still) like these folded ones, designed by Bob Brines for the R/S 40-1354 twincone.
I was listenin' to these yesterday, in fact, just for fun -- and they were (still) sounding mighty fine.
DSC_6399 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr -
Cool man, the Cains had some buzz back when. You have an impressive list of speakers hangin' around, all of them great in their own ways.
Thanks, Tony. I have way too much audio gear, but it brings me joy--often, as in this case, in unexpected ways. Sandy is a saint for seldom giving me any grief about it. -
deucekazoo wrote: »Nice setup!
I never heard the Abbys but always wanted a pair. I do have pair of BLH using the Fostex 166-esr drivers. I know the magic of a single driver, x-overless sound!
Thanks, @deucekazoo. Shortly before his death, Terry Cain also made the Abby with a rear-firing tweeter and minimalist crossover (Fostex ff165k main driver, t-96a alnico rear firing horn tweeter, .33uf capacitor, Fostex 8ohm L-pad attenuator). I always wanted to mod mine and give that a go, but always backed off because I did not find them "needing" anything.
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I remember those.Sandy is a saint for seldom giving me any grief about it.
Indeed!
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
mhardy6647 wrote: »One of the Northern New England vacuum tube gurus had a pair -- in his kitchen. Driven by an MC-225.
I recall them as fun and snappy but a tad too aggressive for my taste (and the 225's not an aggressive sounding amplifier). I think they use the FE-166E drivers, yes?
Hi Mark,
Well, about the only place I don't have a stereo setup is in the kitchen. I might find myself walking down the road talking to myself if I ventured there!
Perhaps the guru needed the near-field driver version (or, he may have had a very large kitchen)? I've never found mine to be aggressive. In fact, despite a great night's rest, I just fell sound asleep listening to Pink Floyd's "Goodbye Blue Sky" on them.
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Sandy is a saint for seldom giving me any grief about it.
Indeed!
You're just saying that cause she feeds you crabs every time you come around.
Which, by the way, has been too long.
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True on both accounts. Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I gots to make a trip to the Bay area. Dead sexy set up. Single driver speakers have always intrigued me.
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When it's all said and done, I like coaxes a tad better overall, but "full range" single-drivers can be pretty beguiling: both coaxes and FRs can image like a ****.
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whoa -- I cannot use the ever-popular euphemism m - o - f - o
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M0f0Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
southerntrucker?
Yes, the imaging is astonishing as is off-axis listening. It's been decades since I heard quality coaxials, so can't be a reliable witness in that regard.
BTW Mark, did you dive into the tweeters on the coaxials you were discussing? (lost track of the thread) -
BlueMDPicker wrote: »southerntrucker?
Yes, the imaging is astonishing as is off-axis listening. It's been decades since I heard quality coaxials, so can't be a reliable witness in that regard.
BTW Mark, did you dive into the tweeters on the coaxials you were discussing? (lost track of the thread)
Reminds me of a juvenile (Jr. High, if memory serves) joke:Q: What do you call someone who mixes cement with a pitchfork?
A: A mortarforker
Thank you, thank you; I'm here 'til Thursday. Try the veal.
Not sure what tweeters/coaxes to which you refer (assuming that question was directed to me; I know there're other 'Marks' here). I've got the Duplexes online again (pulled out the LT12s I was playing with when I cleaned and reorganized upstairs last week) -- and I am, rather heretically, using 'supertweeters' with them (Fostex T90A horns, crossed in very high & padded down a bit).
IMG_0340 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(I was gonna, finally, build the XOs into some boxes but I couldn't FIND THE DANGED HAMMOND PROJECT BOXES I was gonna use!)
The Brines-designed mass-loaded folded TQWTs (same concept as the Abbeys, just folded once to give them a more 'ordinary' appearance and form factor) don't need tweeter help (to my ears) since adding phase plugs to the drivers some years back.
DSCN5289 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr -
Speaking of Fostex twincones (as we sort-of are), I still like these.
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=bottlehead&n=69799&highlight=FE-207&session=
FE-207Es in bass reflex cabinets. And, yes, that's a soiled-state amp (albeit one operating, in this case, at Class A bias).
DSC_3316 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
Polkstand-replicas, too! :- )
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mhardy6647 wrote: »Not sure what tweeters/coaxes to which you refer (assuming that question was directed to me; I know there're other 'Marks' here).
Yep, you da' Mark. Guess you lost track of the thread, too?
They were some OOP speakers that you had asked if anyone knew of the mechanical technique to access/replace the concentric tweeters, IIRC. I had never seen anything like them. -
mhardy6647 wrote: »Speaking of Fostex twincones (as we sort-of are), I still like these.
FE-207Es in bass reflex cabinets. And, yes, that's a soiled-state amp (albeit one operating, in this case, at Class A bias).
Polkstand-replicas, too! :- )
Uh, Butthead, like he said soiled-state.......
Very cool cabinets! Did you build the stand replicas? -
No, actually they were a Polk Forum Karma, built by one "Rev. Hayes".
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/106469/original-style-monitor-10-stands/p1
I have a pair of gen-u-ine vinyl covered particle board Polkstands in the basement (acquired with my 7As in '78) but they're pretty scroungy. The one shown in the photo (i.e., the new pair) is/are very nice.
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Oh, yeah -- EV 12TRXB :-PBlueMDPicker wrote: »mhardy6647 wrote: »Not sure what tweeters/coaxes to which you refer (assuming that question was directed to me; I know there're other 'Marks' here).
Yep, you da' Mark. Guess you lost track of the thread, too?
They were some OOP speakers that you had asked if anyone knew of the mechanical technique to access/replace the concentric tweeters, IIRC. I had never seen anything like them.
I was actually looking at them in the basement last night (whilst looking for something else, of course).
I am tempted to buy a pair of the cheap diaphragms on eBAY and just take a stab at replacing one. Not much to lose when the tweeter's not working any way...
:-P
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Two days of critical listening is pushing this strange brew to the front of the pack here. I find the combo engaging, but I was pleasantly surprised to find my wife sitting in the sweet spot yesterday morning totally engaged (and listening to Pink Floyd's "The Wall" recorded in Berlin)!
I showed her the fortune cookie slip I got last Sunday when we went out for Chinese.
Could this "mean something"? Hope I don't start building and drawing Abby replicas all over the place.
@heiney9 has another pair of tubes headed this way to roll into the HTC. If they offer an improvement (and I fully expect they will), the Innersound Eros MK III may be taking a break for awhile. Really!
-Mike -
BlueMDPicker wrote: »Could this "mean something"? Hope I don't start building and drawing Abby replicas all over the place.
-Mike
Why not? I've been building speaker for some years now. Had a whole lot more fun building than I ever did buying commercial products. I'm slowing down now--wife is concerned that there is no more space for speakers and daughter & son-in-law won't take any more. But it's like eating potato chips: you open the bag & can't stop!
Here are just a few of the ones I have built in a style called Metronome:
A day without music is like a day without food. -
Why am I reminded of Richard Dreyfuss in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind"?
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Yeah, I can see it.
And it's the same kind of obsession. One day, when I had to spend $9K on a new roof instead of spending $3K on a new pair of speakers, I thought it might be interesting to build a pair myself. Next thing I know, I'm paling around with Martin King & he's mentoring me on speaker design...A day without music is like a day without food. -
Jim Shearer wrote: »Why not? I've been building speaker for some years now. Had a whole lot more fun building than I ever did buying commercial products. I'm slowing down now--wife is concerned that there is no more space for speakers and daughter & son-in-law won't take any more. But it's like eating potato chips: you open the bag & can't stop!
Hi Jim,
Very nice work! And yes, as Mark observed, it was a facetious reference to another obsessed individual.
Tell us a bit more about your Metronome builds and the various drivers you've employed.
-Mike -
Jim Shearer wrote: »Yeah, I can see it.
And it's the same kind of obsession. One day, when I had to spend $9K on a new roof instead of spending $3K on a new pair of speakers, I thought it might be interesting to build a pair myself. Next thing I know, I'm paling around with Martin King & he's mentoring me on speaker design...
Well, if nothing else -- you're in excellent company! :- )
http://www.quarter-wave.com/
Obsession fits in with this hobby very well.
EDIT: I say this as a person who spent five hours over the past weekend upstairs in the hifi room & in the basment, looking for a small pair of Hammond project boxes to (finally) install the phenomenally sophisticated crossovers I engineered for the supertweeters on my Altec 604E Duplexes ;- )IMG_0340 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
No, I didn't find them. -
mhardy6647 wrote: »No, I didn't find them.
They'll be in the last place you look.
(As in - why would you keep looking once you've found them?) -
Yes, one of my favorite sayings.
Right up there with:No matter where you go...
There you are -
Hi BlueMDPicker,
The short Mets on far left & right of the photo are bi-pole using Fostex FF85k 3.5” drivers running in parallel. Note that the front driver is placed higher than the back driver. Obviously needs a sub!
Second from the left use Fostex FE167e 6.5” drivers. I didn’t feel the need for a sub with this one.
In the middle is an early-in-my-retirement build using Fostex FE108eSigma drivers. Can be used for jazz w/o a sub, but most folks would want a little more on the bottom end than the 4” drivers can provide.
Fourth from the left use Fostex F120A (Alnico) 4.5" drivers. At first I thought the F120A was a really mediocre driver—really weak in the high end. HOWEVER: I had only used SS amps on them. Then MJK came over with a tube amp. WOW! Sonic bliss! You wouldn’t believe the difference between SS and tubes on the F120A. I use these mostly for jazz & haven’t felt the need for a sub.A day without music is like a day without food. -
Very interesting. I'd love to hear them all!
Pardon my ignorance on speaker design, but is there a formula used for the area of the radius of the front, bottom port (I hope I'm correct in assuming that is a port) to tune the LF?
I am aware of the substantial difference driving my Abbys with tubes vs SS. I initially bought them to be driven by a pair of Transcedent Sound SE OTL kit amps I built (IIRC 3 watts bridged mono). They sounded good but I thought they were in need of a bit more power. I tried them with higher power tube amps (Manley 75+75 and Dynaco ST-70) but the synergy just wasn't there. Last time I used them until recently, they were powered by two Teac AL-700P chip amps. That gave them a bit more punch but they didn't have the air and imaging of the tube amps. Then, I moved and they (as I mentioned above) just sat. This little hybrid amp really marries well with them in a fairly large volume (20x40x12) listening space where other combinations struggle to achieve reference level imaging, bass definition and off-axis SQ.
