Comparable Alternative to Denon DL-160 for use with Technics?

msg

I'm picking up that you guys like the Denon DL-160 with the Technics SL-1200 and other series turntables. NeedleDoctor shows this as discontinued.

Have any of you found or can you recommend suitable/similar alternatives?

erniejade

Whats the price range?

msg

I have no sense of what a good, suitable cartridge costs.
I suppose my range is $300 or less?
I'm a first timer. I'm probably going to need a headshell, too.

honestaquarian

Look at Grado
Believe it or not the late Joe Grado invented the Moving coild cartridge,but would never actually sell one himself.His moving magnet cartridges are very nice and affordable as well.I used to sell grado. Shure is another alernative. I am using Shure V15 series cartridges in my 1200's. However they are also discontinued.

Nightfall

How about the DL-110 or the 301 mk2?

mhardy6647

honestaquarian wrote: »

Look at Grado
Believe it or not the late Joe Grado invented the Moving coild cartridge,but would never actually sell one himself.His moving magnet cartridges are very nice and affordable as well.I used to sell grado. Shure is another alernative. I am using Shure V15 series cartridges in my 1200's. However they are also discontinued.

That's a big 10-4.

FWIW, I do believe that Grado made and sold MCs very early on, but Joe moved quickly and decisively to the moving iron -- MI, sometimes also known as 'variable reluctance' (GE) or 'micro moving cross (MMC, b&o) -- platform that they still use today.

Also FWIW, I am (still) a big fan of the Grado sound; they get some of that soul and lushness of a good (LO) MC cartridge without most of the eccentricities. I say "most" because the Grados are unshielded and will pick up induced hum on some turntables; they also have peculiar tracking issues in some arms ('the Grado dance'). I always liked 'em best in lower-mass arms (they loved the 1970s Philips tts and arms, like the venerable GA-212/312).

I will also opine that the cheaper Grados (from my perspective) offer the best value; the Grado "house sound" is available at all price points, so I think one gets more for one's shekel at the low end of the product line compared to the high. Just the opinion of a cheapskate, though.

As a final FWIW, I use a DL-103 (very low compliance LOMC) in a Technics arm and tt not all that dissimilar to the SL-1200 (to wit, an SL-Q2). This is NOT a canonical match of arm mass and cartridge compliance (the stock arm's not really heavy enough), but I am suitably pleased with the performance of the combination. I bought a DL-103 when Comet Supply was selling 'em for $118; a phenomenal value, I'd opine. Sadly, Comet apparently lost its Denon connection, and cheap Denons from Comet are no more.

I love the sound of the DL-103; something like the DL-301ii is probably a better choice, though.

I know many folks like the "entry" level Dynavectors & they've been recommended to me... I don't have any significant ears-on experience, though.

I will say (and, yet again, FWIW) I don't much care for the sound of the Sumiko "Blue Point" MCs. They just seem very ordinary to me -- I'd opine that one can spend considerably less money to get similarly uninspiring sound from an MM cartridge :-P


spinnin3 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

SCompRacer

What phono pre do you have? That and a budget will determine what cartridges you can use.

I prefer LOMC over any MM, but that's my preference, or mistake to some ways of thinking.

msg

got my list coming together here for reading up. thanks for all the info and contributions so far, guys. very much appreciated. lots of great information to get me started, and some of it I need to gather definitions/glossary on because it's going over my head. the different cartridge types, for example - MC vs MM. I don't know what those are, the differences and why to choose one over the other. I'll have to get everything a proper read here.

Rich - I'm probably going to be using a P5. It's probably the best piece I have; the others are old vintage receivers by Marantz and Sansui. may give them a shot, but they haven't been a proper fit for me with digital to this point. I've also been curious about those little Chinese tube pre's or those Pro-ject pre's or something of the like.

To get this little project off the ground I'm going to say I'd like to keep the budget at around $300 or so. I realize that this may actually be wasteful, but I'm trying to start off easy. I'm also coming to the sharp realization that I've got some serious studying to do - this is nothing like I remember in the old days, where I just plugged in a piece of equipment and put a record on and that was all there was to it.

mhardy6647

All cartridges are little electric generators; like any generator, they depend on the relative movement of a magnet (or a piece of iron) and a coil of wire.

The magnet can move, or the coil. The wiggling of the stylus tracking the groove makes something move, and thus indirectly is responsible for the generation of the signal fed to the preamp/EQ. The generator in the cartridge is really tiny and so the signal is (usually) quite small -- thus the preamp needs much gain.

In an MM (moving magnet) cartridge, the coils are fixed (inside the cartridge body) and the magnet (attached to the cantilever) moves. The signals produced are typically on the order of a few millivolts.

In an MC (moving coil) cartridge, the magets are fixed and the coil(s) move. The coils are very small, so the voltage produced is (typically) very small -- these are the so called LOMC (low-output moving coil cartridges). There are other electrical differences, but the big advantage (probably) is less moving mass on the cantilever. The output voltage of a typical LOMC is a few hundred microvolts (10 times or so less than a typical MM cartridge). A high output MC (HOMC) generally has enough output signal to drive a normal MM phono preamp directly. I'm not sure if they just have way bigger coils or some sort of transformer on board (whatever it is, they still have to be quite light). MC cartridges tend to be fairly low compliance, and happier in higher mass arms.

Grado and a number of vintage cartridges (e.g., those produced under Peter Pritchard's aegis, including, at the least, GE, ADC, and Sonus) have a piece of iron (lighter than a tiny magnet) as the moving element. Bang & Olufsen's MMC ("micro moving cross") cartridge is sort of a MM/MI hybrid; with a 'cross' of iron (I think) elements on the end of the cantilever, moving in the fixed field of coils and magnets. Output and load characteristics are typically similar to most MM cartridges. The Grado, b&o, ADC, and Sonus cartridges, no coincidentally, tend to be high compliance, and happiest in low(er) mass arms.

All of the above are capable of great, mediocre, or terrible sound :- )

There are other cartridge topologies, generally based on the piezoelectric effect (bending or twisting certain ceramic materials can produce a voltage) -- but by and large, they're no longer employed for hifi reproduction. A crystal or ceramic type piezoelectric cartridge can output signals that are directly compatible with a line-level input (!), but there are some pretty significant drawbacks to most ceramic or crystal cartridges that cause them to be pretty much non-players (so to speak!) for hifi.

Lots of references pop up if one googles ;- )

SCompRacer

As in Parasound P5? "Phono input for MM & MC cartridges with 100 Ohm or 47k Ohm load."

For the Technic's guys, here is a great place for parts, info and upgrades. He sells a cloned Technics OEM headshell for ~ $12.

https://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/

Yeah, vinyl, it can be as complicated or simple as you'd like it to be.

mhardy6647

One interesting factoid about the old (e.g., 1970s) integrated amplifiers, preamps, and receivers... at the time, records were the sine qua non of hi fi reproduction for most folks, so the phono sections tended to be pretty good. Some were pretty darned good.

It's perfectly possible - if a little 'ghetto' - to use only the phono section of an old amp or receiver as a "standalone" (if awkwardly so) phono preamp. For a typical 1970s receiver: Turn the speakers "off" and the volume to zero (and/or add noninductive 8 ohm dummy loads across the speaker outputs, if you're really a 'belt & suspenders' type). Hook the tt up as normal to the tt inputs (and ground) of the receiver, set the function (or "Tape out", if so equipped) selector to "phono" and use the tape outputs to drive your preamp or whatever. On most hardware, this will give you an unattenuated but RIAA-equalized (or, more accurately, de-equalized back to flat!) line level signal equivalent to any other line-level source (like a CD player or tape deck) that you can hook to... whatever you like.

That said, a 40-ish year old piece of hardware isn't necessarily performing "like new"; most benefit from some judicious renovation (e.g., replacement of at least electrolytic capacitors).