Newbie--Lots of questions.
marauder1999
Posts: 9
Ok here goes. Any info would be greatly appreciated and helpful.
I own a harman kardon avr 525. It is a 7.1 receiver and have to say it runs all my speakers crystal clear and loud but am looking for more. I want to add an amplifier to this but dont understand all the terminology thrown around or why it would benefit the sound. Such as,
1. Is my harman kardon a pre amp, pre out or just a receiver?
2. I do have pre out jacks on my HK. If hooking these up too a amplifier does it take the 70 watts the HK is giving me plus whatever the amp is rated at or just gives me the amp watts?
3. How does it effect sound by using a outside amp? Not saying HK is the best but one of the reasons i purchased a HK is because of their clarity of sound. If the sound is coming from an external amp does the HK really have any effect on the sound?
4. Is it better to buy multiple amps, one for the mains, one for the surrounds or try and get a 7 channel amp?
5. This is primarly used for home theatre use so if I did buy multiple amps dont they all have to be rated the same? If not, ,this is a real stupid question but how do i use the volume control for all the amps? Does the receiver still the ultimate volume control?
6. What are the best amplifiers to buy ranging from 500 to 2000?
Thanks in advance for any replys. I know theres alot of audiophiles out there that could break all this down for me. Please help. Thanks again.
I own a harman kardon avr 525. It is a 7.1 receiver and have to say it runs all my speakers crystal clear and loud but am looking for more. I want to add an amplifier to this but dont understand all the terminology thrown around or why it would benefit the sound. Such as,
1. Is my harman kardon a pre amp, pre out or just a receiver?
2. I do have pre out jacks on my HK. If hooking these up too a amplifier does it take the 70 watts the HK is giving me plus whatever the amp is rated at or just gives me the amp watts?
3. How does it effect sound by using a outside amp? Not saying HK is the best but one of the reasons i purchased a HK is because of their clarity of sound. If the sound is coming from an external amp does the HK really have any effect on the sound?
4. Is it better to buy multiple amps, one for the mains, one for the surrounds or try and get a 7 channel amp?
5. This is primarly used for home theatre use so if I did buy multiple amps dont they all have to be rated the same? If not, ,this is a real stupid question but how do i use the volume control for all the amps? Does the receiver still the ultimate volume control?
6. What are the best amplifiers to buy ranging from 500 to 2000?
Thanks in advance for any replys. I know theres alot of audiophiles out there that could break all this down for me. Please help. Thanks again.
Post edited by marauder1999 on
Comments
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OK I'll take a crack at it....
1. Your HK is just a receiver but it does have 7.1 pre-outs, so it can be used as a pre-amp if you wish to do so.
2. The pre-out's are not amplified. They supply the signal an amplifier uses to generate an output. You only get the power supplied by the new amplifier.
3. A separate amplifier can produce far more power than the amplifier built in to the HK, that would be the benefit. More power can make your speakers sound cleaner, have more impact, play louder, etc. But, HK will still be the signal source, so it will still have a great affect on the sound, even though it is not amplifying it.
4 Some run a single-channel amplifier on each speaker, some use one huge multi-channel amp, others use just a receiver. The benefits to multiple amplifiers is multiple power-supplies. That way, if one channel plays very loudly, it doesn't suck juice away from the other channels. The bigger question for you is, what kind of speakers do you plan to power?
5. Generally, you would run the same rated power to all seven speakers, but that can change depending on the speakers you are using. Volume changes happen in the receiver or pre-amp.
6. Well, I am sure you could find many fine products in that range but again, what speakers?Go BIG or go home! -
Very knowledgable sowen, Thank you.
My speakers are as follows,
2 towers,RT12
Center,CS5
4 Surrounds, RT6
Only polk product i dont have is the sub. It is a velodyne CHT-12
All of my speakers are rated very high and if its true to you saying that they would sound better being driven by an external amplifier with more power, then thats the way I shall go.
The HK is rated at 7x70. Very loud and crisp but want louder and crisper for the home theatre experience.
You said that the Hk will still have a impact on the sound because it is the signal source. In terms of amps, is this how they are priced also? By the way they sound or by the way they are built.
I am more into clarity of sound than loudness. Loudness would be great as long as it is crisp sounding.
I hope this helps you in explaining further. -
Welcome M99...
sowen's got you well underway here, so rather than horn in altogether, I'll just make a point or two and ask a questions or two...
2. I do have pre out jacks on my HK. If hooking these up too a amplifier does it take the 70 watts the HK is giving me plus whatever the amp is rated at or just gives me the amp watts?
I think your question is whether your HK can both be a Pre and an AVR, i.e., if you hook up an external 2 ch amp for your mains does the HK continue to power mains as well. Some AVR's do, some don't. If your HK does, then you can potentially use it in a bi-amp set-up. Consult your manual...
3. How does it effect sound by using a outside amp?
Ideally you buy an amp with the same characteristics as your AVR's amp section. There are several characteristics that can influence an amps sound. Among these are gain, slew rate, sensitivity. HK amps may have a better chance of matching, but there are no guarantees. How close do you have to come.... depends on your ears.
4. Is it better to buy multiple amps, one for the mains, one for the surrounds or try and get a 7 channel amp?
IMO I'd go with a 2 ch for your mains first. Rating will depend on the answer to question 2.
Is your center a new, CSi5? Also could not find anything on your surrpouns in the library. There is info on your 12's. There are many followers of the old RT line here. And the CHT-12 is a very serviceable sub and better than the majority of Polk choices.
Only closing thought I'd offer is think about what you want to do, if you make a move. You seem very happy with what you have, and if that's true why change at all?More later,
Tour...
Vox Copuli
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb
"Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
"It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
"There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD -
Thanks tour for the comments and help.
In reference to my speakers,the center is the new CSi5. Sounds absolutely incredible. The 4 back surrounds are the RTi6.
Ideally you buy an amp with the same characteristics as your AVR's amp section. There are several characteristics that can influence an amps sound. Among these are gain, slew rate, sensitivity. HK amps may have a better chance of matching, but there are no guarantees. How close do you have to come.... depends on your ears.
Well,this is for home theatre use. I really dont know what would go along well with the HK i currently have. Ive seen alot of recomendations for anthem and adcom amps in other forums but they are not nearby and it would be seemingly impossible for me to test all of the prospects.
I do agree with you in the fact that I should start with a 2 channel amp that would power my front mains. I guess that is my primary objective. My main objective is just like everyone else,have the best theatre experience you can have at home. I do not want to skimp on a cheap amp though but I also dont want to rob the bank of funds.
Yes, i am quite happy with my setup and sound but numerous people and audiophiles alike all agree that you get better sound from an external amplifier. I cant agree with them because i havent done it yet but it seems logical.
So do you have any thoughts for a 2 channel amp to go along with my HK?
Thanks Again for your help. -
The "i's" help ID the speakers...
You can go very mad in this hobby listening to what others say. Without others you could very well be happy with what you have for a long, long time.... But since that's no fun.
http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.asp?cat=AMP&ser=&prod=PA%202000&sType=C
In the 2 ch mode this on your mains mid-woofer and the AVR on its tweets in a bi-amp configuration might be a nice step. In 2 ch mode the PA 2000 is slightly more robust than your AVR, but on the MW's that's appropriate, or at least not too far out of line.
Again this approach depends on your AVR's ability to pre-out the mains' signals and still drive the internal amps.More later,
Tour...
Vox Copuli
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb
"Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
"It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
"There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD -
marauder1999,
Are the mains RT12's or RTi12's ?
I'm guessing that they are the RTi12's given what your other speakers are.
If so these will handle and enjoy lots of clean power.
As far as which amp to get to power them goes ... If you ask 10 people you are likely to get as many opinions. In any case as stated you can if you like get a 2 channel amp and use your receiver to drive the center and surrounds but it would be my preference in a HT environment to have similar amplification for the center as for the mains as the center will get lots of use in HT. Additionally imho a multi channel amp is not going to be unduly taxed a lot more by adding surrounds to its load as the surrounds just aren't going to tax the amp that much.
If you aren't opposed to used equipment and once you start to get a feel for which amps you might want to go with be sure to check Audiogon and/or eBay as you are likely to find much better amplifiers used for the same price as you'd buy a lesser quality new one. -
Good question, PW. I was assuming RT12's. Not sure I'd answer different at this stage if they are RTi12's...More later,
Tour...
Vox Copuli
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb
"Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
"It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
"There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD -
That PA 2000 that Tour posted should be great for you. I have one of those coming in the mail and it should be here in a couple of days, so I'll let you know what I think.
I agree with Tour...definitely take the bi-amp route if you can, using your receiver to power the highs...this will basically be having 170 WPC for your mains...That's exactly what I'm doing with MY HK AVR80.
I took a look at the manual for your receiver...wow it's worse than mine!!! Anyway, I wasn't able to determine if you'll be able to use the pre outs along with the amps in the receiver, couldn't find a clear answer in the manual. I've asked one of my contacts at HK that I've talked to before, should have an answer for you withing a few hours...this information will be critical to whatever decision you make so I'll let you know as soon as I hear something...
As for the multichanel amp, you can go that route, but if the above solution works, it will be the cheapest method and it gives you something that you can always build on in the future (ie you can always add more amps later if you want to power the center and surrounds). -
marauder1999, how big is your room? Have you properly calibrated all your speakers? How loud do you listen? Your receiver is rated at 70 wpc and knowing HK, I am pretty confident in those specs. If you add a 150 wpc amp for the fronts, you will only get a 3 dB boost in the sound. Every time you double your power you get 3 more dB's of sound. That is not a lot. You HK has a very good amp section, as receivers go, and I doubt you will notice much of an improverment with a 150 watt entry level amp. But, it is fun to try new things. You might want to see if a local A/V store will let you try one before you buy. One more thing, your 70 wpc HK will play a lot louder and cleaner than a Pioneer, Sony or Panasonic entry level receiver claiming 100 wpc. Be careful, adding amps gets addictive! Enjoy, Jeff
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OK two things:
1: Just talked to James at HK...your receiver WILL do sound from the pre outs and speaker terminals at the same time...so that question is answered and IMO your best option will be to bi-amp those beasts with the HK PA2000 or another amp...
2. I'll address warlocks1 comment below. I'd have to disagree... The whole 'doubling the power only gives 3 DB more volume' statement is a little misleading IMO. While technically that may be true, it doesn't give the whole picture. As I stated in another thread, increasing your power doesn't only give you more volume, it also increases what we'll just call 'sound quality'...things like imaging, soundstage, clearer sound, etc. It basically just makes it better.
I recently increased from 75 watts to 100 watts and it made a HUGE difference...
I do agree obviously with Jeff's comments about HK vs. other brands like SOny, etc...that 70 WPC is a conservative 70 WPC, but think what adding another 100 WPC on top of that will do...yes it will make it louder, but more importantly it will give a cleaner sound overall.
Tell you what...if you go buy the PA2000 and don't like or or think that it makes a difference, give me a shout and I'll buy it from you...seriously...
You can grab one off Ebay for probably less than $200...
My $.02 -
IMO, a 100 watt amp of the same quality as the 70 watt amp will not improve your sound much. I have 3 carver amps bridged at 280 watts running my fronts. They have meters on them and when I crank music or listen to movies at reference levels, the meters NEVER go above 100 watts. I cannot comment on the HK amp since i have never heard one. I think people, me included, get caught up in the power game. The quality of the amp is way more important. Would you rather have a Krell rated at 100 wpc or an Adcom rated at 300 wpc? Many true audiophiles use tube amps rated at less than 30 wpc. That being said, I would buy the HK amp or similiar and enjoy the hobby of "improving" your gear. I do believe that biamping will help your sound a little. One of the best part of having seperate amps is that you can always upgrade your receiver and keep your amps. The other best part is that it is fun to try new things and collect more toys. Again, this is just my opinion and I could be wrong!
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Tend to agree, Pm. I forget the particulars of your amp upgrade, but I think it was a brand switch as well... yes? In the same manf's line, I can't see a move from 75 to 100 wpc being that big.
That said, going from 70 wpc to a 70/ 100 wpc bi-amp rig is a pretty decent boost.
Did a quick ebay search and found two 2000's under $250...
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&ht=1&query=pa2000More later,
Tour...
Vox Copuli
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb
"Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
"It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
"There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD -
First of all, thank you all for the time you have put in to answer my questions. Most of you are true adiophiles. Hopefully by hanging around these forums i will become as knowledgable. Until then,back to the questions,lol.
1. Warlocks, i agree 100% with quality is better than quantity. To reiterate a earlier post I made, i bought the HK with the understanding that the sound reproduction was very good. That is why I was originally skeptical in purchasing an amp because i thought that the amp is reproducing the sound then. I was set straight by sowen. The amp only multiplies the sound. Thank you sowen.
My room dimensions are as follows,screen wall is 16 feet, side walls are 27 feet and height is 8 feet.
2. Polkmaniac, thank you for the inquiry of HK for me. I looked into the HKPA2000 amp and thought that the 100wpc wouldnt be substantial given that my receiver was already giving out 70wpc. You are saying however that i could Bi amp this which would make it 170wpc,2 channels. Is this right? if this is the case, I would love to do it but dont understand the theory of Bi-amping. How does it work? How do you connect the terminals? i posted what you wrote, but dont understand it. Thanks again.
Just talked to James at HK...your receiver WILL do sound from the pre outs and speaker terminals at the same time...so that question is answered and IMO your best option will be to bi-amp those beasts with the HK PA2000 or another amp... -
Some, NOT ALL, speakers have two pairs of connection terminals on them with typically a metal plate that runs between the upper and lower pair.
To bi-amp speakers using a receiver and an amplifier you would remove these jumper plates and wire the output of your receiver to the upper pair and the output of your amplifier for the same channel to the lower pair.
If you bought these speakers new, refer to the documentation that came with them, if you didn't then check the documentation here ... http://www.polkaudio.com/home/library/manuals.php -
If the speakers do not have that capability,(2 sets of terminals) does this mean i can not bi amp? I am interested highly in the PA2000 but dont want to buy it if I cant use it.
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That is correct ... But to clarify from a question I asked before ...
Do you have the RT12's ? or the RTi12's ? -
I couldnt tell you that because i am writing these posts at work,lol. I do know however that my mains are the only ones that dont have the 2 sets of speaker terminals.
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Bummer ... Are you sure they aren't these ? ... http://www.polkaudio.com/home/products.php?category=3&speaker=347
The reason I'm asking is the other speakers you said you had i.e. the CSi5 and RTi6's are all from the most current line. How did you come by the RT12's which are older ? -
Ive had the R12s. I just upraged my surrounds and center. Next upgrade is mains. Thats a whole seperate topic. So am i pretty much screwed in not being able to use the PA2000 now? If so what are your recomendations? thanks.
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No your not screwed ... you just can't bi-amp the speakers if the speakers don't have 2 pairs of binding posts. You can still use an amplifier for higher power although it would be my recommendation, and I suspect others as well, to go with more than what that particular amplifier can provide since it'll be the only source for those speakers.
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I understand completely now. Thank You.
So, there are many different amplifiers out there,alot of recomendations for adcom, anthem,etc. I guess i will just have to find the best suitable for my HK. Is there such a thing? You own a HK,,yes? What style amp do You prefer if you werent bi-amping?
Also,what would be a significant upgrade as far as wattage is concerned?,The reciever is pumping out 70 now, im thinking,200? -
No, I don't own an HK. It's more like the best suitable for YOU than for the HK. Suitable will take into account price, class, power, number of channels, etc. In this nutty hobby you can pay a couple hundred for an amp or a hundred times that depending on what you want.
I would agree 200 wpc is a good place to be for an entry level amp which will probably more than do the job.
Just to confirm because now you are referring to these as R12's ... Are these the speakers you have ? http://www.polkaudio.com/home/specs.php?category=3&speaker=154&vintage=1
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I'll leave you one last thought here ...
If you are thinking about upgrading your mains and you are not having difficulty powering the speakers you have with your HK, then I'd hold up on buying an amp now until you decide what new mains you are going to get. Your speaker selection could very well make a difference in how much power you want for them and thus which amp you choose. -
Absolutely right. Thanks.
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OK, so you own R12's not RT12's. Sorry for the detour, but the RT12's are listed as bi-ampable...
Agree that you now need to consider what you want to do, if anything.
Will add that it may not be out of the question to install dual binding posts in your R12's. Depends on how adventurous and handy you are.
More later,
Tour...
Vox Copuli
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb
"Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
"It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
"There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD -
Originally posted by Tour2ma
Tend to agree, Pm. I forget the particulars of your amp upgrade, but I think it was a brand switch as well... yes? In the same manf's line, I can't see a move from 75 to 100 wpc being that big.
That said, going from 70 wpc to a 70/ 100 wpc bi-amp rig is a pretty decent boost.
Did a quick ebay search and found two 2000's under $250...
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&ht=1&query=pa2000
yes, upgrade was from an Onkyo to HK...and like I said, it's not really louder, just more clear, but that could easily be things other than the amp, other stuff in the receiver. I thought it was rather odd since Onkyo is a respected brand,a nd I actually replaced a newer Onkyo with an older HK and had that much of an improvement...
Anywy, I am in agreement that the bi-amping route would be good.
I guess it doesn't matter anymore in this case...