Got this in email. What do you think?
HBombToo
Posts: 5,256
Tax Cuts - A Simple Lesson In Economics
This is how the cookie crumbles. Please read it carefully.
Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100.
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh $7.
The eighth $12.
The ninth $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that's what they decided to do.
The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.
"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."
So, now dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.
So, the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share'?
The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being 'PAID' to eat their meal.
So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man "but he got $10!"
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!"
"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore. There are lots of good restaurants in Europe and the Caribbean.
David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D
Distinguished Professor of Economics
536 Brooks Hall
University of Georgia
This is how the cookie crumbles. Please read it carefully.
Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100.
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh $7.
The eighth $12.
The ninth $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that's what they decided to do.
The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.
"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."
So, now dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.
So, the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share'?
The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being 'PAID' to eat their meal.
So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man "but he got $10!"
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!"
"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore. There are lots of good restaurants in Europe and the Caribbean.
David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D
Distinguished Professor of Economics
536 Brooks Hall
University of Georgia
***WAREMTAE***
Post edited by HBombToo on
Comments
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Absolutely perfect!!! I can't tell you how many times I've had to have that argument with morons (Tax breaks for the rich, how dare they!!!!). I will be distributing that post shortly.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
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Very nice indeed.Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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Presactly ...
Unlike apparently most people believe, the more you make, the more they take and not just in terms of dollars, in terms of percentage. -
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Can someone answer that why the first four were eating free and the tenth man paying $59?-izafar
Goldenear Technology Triton 1 - Benchmark AHB2 - Benchmark LA4 - Auralic Vega - Auralic Aries Mini - Marantz TT-15S1 - Clearaudio Nano -
The example of the 10 men is a statistical mirror image of US individual taxpayers (sorted by income) and the food bill is the amount of taxes paid. The lowest 40% pay no taxes, the next 10% pays 1% of the total taxes, the next 10% pays 3% of the total taxes, etc...and the highest 10% pays 59% of the total taxes collected. This is an accurate representation!Originally posted by izafar
Can someone answer that why the first four were eating free and the tenth man paying $59?"Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
Sounds Accurate. My Microeconomics Teacher Couldnt Explain It This Good!
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Originally posted by shack
The example of the 10 men is a statistical mirror image of US individual taxpayers (sorted by income) and the food bill is the amount of taxes paid. The lowest 40% pay no taxes, the next 10% pays 1% of the total taxes, the next 10% pays 3% of the total taxes, etc...and the highest 10% pays 59% of the total taxes collected. This is an accurate representation!
OK, let me put my question this way: why the lowest 40% pay no taxes and the highest 10% pay 59% of the tax.-izafar
Goldenear Technology Triton 1 - Benchmark AHB2 - Benchmark LA4 - Auralic Vega - Auralic Aries Mini - Marantz TT-15S1 - Clearaudio Nano -
To Make Up FOr the 40% That Dont Pay Taxes?
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Everybody wants to be the tenth man and they still have MORE money in the pockets at the end of the day. Doesn't mean they are better people or work any harder than the first four. And so the rich get richer and if the rich don't pay thier due share - they get even richer unlike the first four and therefore the whole point I am still searching. Because you guys are not millionaires you really don't know how much our financial systems benifites the rich. Believe me that BUY loop holes. But it does lend a simple understanding of the tax paying structure but WAY TOO MANY MORE structures involved. Just one example: because I am not currently contributing to the over population of the US I get to pay for everyone's children. Think about it........ How many pregnancies are actually planned with a financial structure and enviorment in place....... So we should all have as many children as possiable because we get HUGE tax breaks and other responsiable people have to pay for them. 33% taken - just to break even at the end of the year (single male at 30,000 a year) I bet the rich people a laughing at the way to the bank with that in mind....................
(Independent)
PS : My tax heart is NOT going out to Donald Trump or Shawn Puffy Combs. -
Originally posted by scottvamp
And so the rich get richer and if the rich don't pay thier due share - they get even richer unlike the first four and therefore the whole point I am still searching.
Don't pay their share? What are you saying, that everyone should have their income capped and everything above a certain value goes to the government? The point is that when (typically dems, but whichever party didn't make the cuts) **** about tax reductions, they quote that the rich (who pay 59% of all taxes) get the largest dollar value back, which is true. What they ignore is that an even larger percentage of the tax burden is then moved to that top 10%. Wouldn't a "fair share" be that guy number 10 get back $12 instead of $10? Then he would have had the same percentage change as he paid in. That would be "fair".
Hate to break it to you, but if the rich didn't get richer, guys 1-9 would most likely be out of a job in a bankrupt country.
*end rant*
I would also say that if you have heard about the US losing jobs over-sea's, well, that's a sign that guy number 10 is leaving without the check paid.
Also, the top 10% are not 7 figure salaries, but rather ~150-200K or so and up per household which means a chunk of people on the board are probably represented by guy number 10.
The whole idea of "buying" loopholes is also a misnomer. Sure, they can hire some accounted to invest their money in tax free bonds or buy an SUV as a business expense but they will STILL pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than 1-9 would unless they are doing something explicitely illegal, then they get arressted.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
I agree with for the most part. Our system does promote the rich getting richer. Thats not something to be proud of. So if your saying thier or no RICH people to support the sytem then the anti-christ shows up and total destruction accures then OK - and I should call rich folk our new GOD. In part is true.........
But read what I am saying - who supports the rich people???. The "single responsiable guy" making (busting his **** for corporate greed) 30 to 40k a year (very good money in my land) paying out over 30% in taxes (thats over 30 cents of every dollar) just to break even at the end of the year..... Now think what that person has to do to keep some of that in his pocket:
*have as many children as possiable
*get into debt WAY over his head for the deductions - ultimately contributing to the national dept.
And to bad MANY of our so called GODS move or live partialy in other countries.......... -
I'm not sure if this is true but from what I have heard... only 10% of the general population make 100k and up.
The 1 thing I believe I disagree on is the regressive SS tax capping at ~85k. I don't believe it is right to allow incomes above 85k to go untaxed. but then again I'm not sure and this is very puzzeling to me....
HBomb***WAREMTAE*** -
Both FACTS that support what I am saying......... No tax for "rich" people - ya go Bush!!!!!!!!!! Interesting that only 10% are in that braket, yet most of us "support" it........... WOW!!!!!!!
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Hate to break it to you, but if the rich didn't get richer, guys 1-9 would most likely be out of a job in a bankrupt country.
that is only fine if every one gets richer. on the other hand if only rich is to get richer at the expense of poor getting poorer then every one knows what guys 1 to 9 will eventually end up doing.-izafar
Goldenear Technology Triton 1 - Benchmark AHB2 - Benchmark LA4 - Auralic Vega - Auralic Aries Mini - Marantz TT-15S1 - Clearaudio Nano -
Originally posted by scottvamp
The "single responsiable guy" making (busting his **** for corporate greed) 30 to 40k a year (very good money in my land) paying out over 30% in taxes (thats over 30 cents of every dollar) B]
30% in taxes??? Damn, should of used H&R block. At $30K and single, he should ony have paid $3021, at $40K, 4,929. Assuming no other deductions (IRS Tax Table) . Looks more like 10-12.5% Where's the rest of it coming from? Sales tax? Only on non-neccessities...
As for the rich being gods? What planet are you on? If you want a TV, car, or even a stereo, you need entrepeneurs. The only way you have those is if they can make more money. If they can't make money here, they don't hire more workers here. If they can make money somewhere else, they will leave. Does this make them gods? Hell no.
Children? They cost a hell of a lot more than the tax break. Here you go: The $30K family with one kid goes from paying 3021 to 2571. A whopping $450 bucks per kid per year. Any deductions from interest only lower your taxes by the tax rate: I donate $1 to a charity, I save $0.25 on my taxes. How do you get ahead doing that? (Giving away money)
As for the wealthy moving away, the best way to help your 30K guy is for the rich guy to have some incentive to pay the guy $60K for his work. By sending him away, now your 30K guy HAS to pay 30% so that he can have roads to drive on, social security, and to keep the Canadians from invading!
Also, for the God comment? Uh, no sir. Anyone with half a brain can live off of the land and provide himself with everything he needs to live. That is given to him by God, not the rich.
HBomb, your comment was what I heard around 95-96 so I upped the $ a bit, but you are right, it probably is in the ballpark.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
30% for Federal, FICA, SS and State tax is pretty dam close in my world.
Look at your money - "In God We Trust." Think about it.
Actually H & R Block did my taxes years ago and I never got a dime back and they could not care less. They are thier to take a cut from the people who can't what a couple weeks for thier earned income credit and noone I know were doing it because they could not wait to spend it on thier kids. I have done my taxes electronically on the internet for years and I have got tons more back and learned alot in the process.
I believe many want to simply live off the land but then you have to pay taxes on that land.
As for as rich being GODS - not in my book but society - pay attention - what world are you living - the entire US is like the E! channel - when a rich person FARTS we MUST talk about it for a few minutes. The Hilton girls - BEN and JLOW were talked about more and in detail the Adam and Eve. I could go on and on...... -
Originally posted by scottvamp
Both FACTS that support what I am saying......... No tax for "rich" people - ya go Bush!!!!!!!!!! Interesting that only 10% are in that braket, yet most of us "support" it........... WOW!!!!!!!
What are you talking about? No tax for the rich? You really need to read more about his plans. Actually, I would guess that 30%+ of the regular posters are in that bracket.
If you want to make over $100K, let me know. I can Guarantee that you can make that much here at TI if you don't mind working 70+hrs/week. I am serious, I will get anyone willing to move on their own cash a job pushing wafers (Assuming you have a GED or HS diploma) With OT and shift premiums, motivated guys make 100-120 a year. Then you will know how much in taxes these people pay.
What does the rich getting richer have anything to do with how poor the poor are? The poor typically get poorer because they continue to ask the wealthy for more $ so they get downsized or shipped offshore.
As for the SS cap, that's not THAT much of a break considering that those people can not typically use 401K's, IRA's and the like to save for retirement. It also means that they still pay the SS tax on their income upto $85K, not that they are excluded. These are also the people who are paying into a system that they will never use. Why should they pay for it?There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
I did not write this but have read the same on the news and such. Sorry but I do not have time to read what Bush has not done/ plans to do. I work for corperate greed which Bush explains in one of his commercials he wants to do away with yet has supported and passed laws to promote..........The 1 thing I believe I disagree on is the regressive SS tax capping at ~85k. I don't believe it is right to allow incomes above 85k to go untaxed. but then again I'm not sure and this is very puzzeling to me....
I am done ranting......... -
Originally posted by scottvamp
30% for Federal, FICA, SS and State tax is pretty dam close in my world.
Federal everything is 17% all included. (I'll give you that, but know what? Those taxes (medicare, ss, etc...) are there to help the poor and elderly.
J-Low and those morons? They are about 1/2 of 1/2 of a percent of the population. That 10% includes darn near every successful car dealer, resteraunt owner, engineer, geologist, college prof, need me to go on? Are these people the enemies of the working man?
If you want to go off on the Bill Gates of the world, go ahead. I agree with most of what you say about the top half of one percent of the wage earners in the country.
As for your actors and such, who pays their outrageous salaries? You do. If everyone stopped caring about them, they would be poor.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
Scott, just letting you know that I like to debate...
One thing that has really ticked me off about the press is stating that the economy and corporate scandals are Bush's fault when they were created and committed to on Clinton's watch. (You could make a better case that it was Bush senior and Reagons fault than Bush jr. but I digress)
Really read his plans and Kerry's before you vote. Personally, I think both of their plans suck, but at least I can make an informed decision about which one sucks more.
For the record, I vote for that which I feel is best for the country and not what is best for myself in terms of taxes.
(Oh, and I'm not man #10, otherwise Russ wouldn't have to loan me anything)There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
Because it is not a "TAX". It was designed to be a form of deferred income. You give it to the govt. while you are working and they give it back when you retire. The cap comes into play because of benefit limitations. No matter how much you earn during your working years your SS benefits will be capped at certain level and the max SS contibution was based on the calculated lifetime benefits. It should also be noted that the SS contribution levels have increased at a much faster rate than the level of benefits (much of this however is based on increasing lifespans).Originally posted by HBombToo
The 1 thing I believe I disagree on is the regressive SS tax capping at ~85k. I don't believe it is right to allow incomes above 85k to go untaxed. but then again I'm not sure and this is very puzzeling to me....
HBomb
And for every one of the "RICH AVOID TAXES" overblown BS story ou there....there are hundreds that pay a very large percentage of their income in taxes. I caluculated that between income taxes, SS payments, sales taxes, R/E taxes, gas taxes, taxes on utilities, entertainment taxes on lodging etc, etc...over 45% of my gross income goes to the government. If it were not for charitable giving, mortgage interest deductions and 401K contributions it would be even higher. Don't anyone try to tell me that I'm getting my money's worth from the govt."Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
I wasn't going off on anyone????????If you want to go off on the Bill Gates of the world, go ahead.
Good OK - but it still comes out of your pocket - that is what the conversation is about.Those taxes (medicare, ss, etc...) are there to help the poor and elderly.
If that is what spells success for you?????????? I place much more importance on mine. Health - Family are good examples.That 10% includes darn near every successful car dealer, resteraunt owner, engineer, geologist, college prof, need me to go on? Are these people the enemies of the working man?
I don't have a problem with rich people at all - I hang out at the Playboy Mansion everytime I get a chance.;) -
Flat Tax....
Everyone pays 20%. -
Originally posted by Polkmaniac
Flat Tax....
Everyone pays 20%.
That insane man!!!!!!!! Being equal/FAIR - thats when the Anti-Christ shows up. LOL:D -
Making a good wage doesn't mean "success" but it does make keeping your family healthy and happy a bit easier as long as the time commitments don't consume you.
I just don't see why you think anyone who is making more than the guy down at the plant is evil or the anti-christ...???
Personally, I think everyone pays too much in taxes...
Edit: Sorry, needed to finish my work for the day...
IMHO: The government should only tax to build infrastructure, defense, Basic assistance to the unemployed an elderly, and enforce the laws of the country.
If someone wants to research cow farts or what not, it should come from private funding.
One idea that might stir up some talk would be having the government set the budget ($ goal) and then the people pick from a catalog of programs that they want their money to go to and the money is distributed that way. It would be very interesting to see what would get financed and what programs would get shat upon.There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin -
Reality check Scott...
'Rich' guys, the ones you are thinking of with the yachts, mansions, ect, you know...people like the top 5 wealthiest people in the U.S Senate....guys like John Kerry...
...well...they have assets. When you're a multi-millionaire you don't have a vault in your house filled with millions of dollars that you frolic in every morning like Scrooge McDuck. I know the country is retarded when it comes to economics and how wealth is derived, but it's not how hollywood portrays it.
Anyhow...These tax cuts or tax hikes don't really mean a lick to guys like John Kerry because they are multi-millionaires whose wealth is derived from things like property, ect.
The real 'Rich' that you guys like to talk about are people who aren't really 'rich' until Uncle Sam comes arounds and says they are. The top 1 percent made at least $313,469, the top 10 percent at least $92,144, the top 25 percent at least $55,225 and the top 50 percent at least $27,682. These figures were taken from the IRS.
I'm sorry to say, Scott, but people who busted their **** so that they can get the jobs and/or skills that can pay $313,469 shouldn't be paying any more than the humps making $27,682. It sickens me that wealth should somehow = guilt and that it's wrong to be successful....and what's even worse is the fact that there are idiots out there than think the government is better at managing YOUR money than YOU. That the government should have the right to take away half of your income because they want to waste it on BS social programs that don't work...that only aid in fraud and lazyness. There is hardly a government program today that isn't crooked and faulty....and George Bush is as much to blame as the next guy for his Liberal domestic agenda, but i'll be goddamnned if i'm going to put some pacifist little Socialist like John 'The Gigalo' Kerry in the Whitehouse.
Maybe when you make a little bit of money someday and you see how hard you're takin' it in the keaster without any lube from the government you'll see the other side of the coin. All those 'rich' guys provide jobs for people just out of highschool or who didn't apply themselves as much as the next guy. And guess what...some people inherit wealth! *GASP* move on...lifes not fair, but life is what you make of it. God forbid a guy wants to be a carpenter and is satisfied with a modest living. Maybe he's happy with that....
:eek: :eek: :eek: -
Classic Demi! Love it!There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
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Reality check - that is what I am talking about. I live a VERY good life. I just had an incredable weekend. Stuff the average Joe only dreams about. - (Not too mention Lake Havasu in two weeks - if you get my drift) have not said a single bad thing about Rich people in general.
Demi,
You have not grasped anything I have stated but that is OK. Things you just stated:
*Some Rich poeple have worked hard to be rich - insightful!!
*Don't blame Bush for anything becuase I like him... OK
*Rich people provide jobs - WOW - like the one I work at......
ALL nothing to do with what I said ---- Demi - Read me again my friend because something just flew right by..........
The problem is forcing one's beliefs and disregarding others opions because it does not fit their personal idiealogy. It is what starts things like racism. Settle down an try to understand where people are coming from and learn - it is what life is all about.....
Cheers - LOL:cool:
By the way I am a 12 year Aerospace Mechanic and do very well not to mention an awesome 401k plan - having 20k reference HT is why I am on this forum............ -
I gotta side with the upper crust on this one people!
