AVR Recommendations

villian

Long story short my (now quickly aging) Yamaha RXV series AVR apparently only has an output voltage of 1.0v on the pre-outs, something I never noticed until now. So I'm searching for an updated replacement that supports 7ch pre-outs at the traditional 1.4v for driving my array of Crown XLS amps (Gen 1 1500's) unless anyone has any other suggestions? I feel like I'm not getting everything out of the amps that I could be, and won't with a 1.0v output vs a 1.4v output?

My main desires are as follows...
-Sub $1.2k range
-7 channel or more
-Any amount of zones, however if dual zone then support digital inputs for zone 2 audio or a "Party Mode"
-High SQ

Other concerns..
Atmos support possibly? Hmm?
Spotify connect? Unless it's better to just use the PC app in HQ mode.
Anything else you guys can think of that I forgot as main concerns or other concerns?


I've always used Yamaha, and I feel like I might be moving away from them now..so I'm totally lost

rpf65

Crutchfield has Marantz sr 7008 (non ATMOS ) good price. A4L has refurb sr 7009 slightly above that. The sr 600x series has pre outs. X009 and x010 have ATMOS.

Erik Tracy

I guess I don't understand the fixation on the voltage preouts?

I have an RX-V1800 and used the preouts to drive an external Carver poweramp to "stoopid" loud, scare the neighbors, pure sonic goodness.

What has you convinced
1)The Yamaha AVR preouts are only 1.0V
2)That 1.4V is 'better' with a given ext amp
3)Have you been reading too much on audio forums that begin with the letter "A"?

Nightfall

He's running pro amps. I think I remember reading they need more input voltage to hit their maximum output than a home audiophile amplifier.

OP if you're looking for high SQ than why the pro amps?

villian

Erik Tracy wrote: »

What has you convinced
1)The Yamaha AVR preouts are only 1.0V

Says it on the Yamaha spec page. Yup, I was just as surprised as you are!

I never thought to check until now. I've run the amps on other AVRs previously and been much happier. Apparently Yamaha went all proprietary with their pre-amp output voltages (I never knew this until now..) and use **** components in that area, and refuses to change things for the better. It's a well known Yamaha issue in the consumer, prosumer, and live sound amp worlds alike. Everyone steers away from Yamaha HT AVR's for that reason alone. 95% of their AVR's don't even come with a pre-out of any type now, can you believe that? It's seriously turning me off from Yamaha. They used to be a great value, but it looks like those days are fast disappearing.

Erik Tracy wrote: »

2)That 1.4V is 'better' with a given ext amp

My amps won't achieve full rated power without a 1.4v input.

Nightfall wrote: »

He's running pro amps. I think I remember reading they need more input voltage to hit their maximum output than a home audiophile amplifier.

Yep

Nightfall wrote: »

OP if you're looking for high SQ than why the pro amps?

I'm running a Crown XLS..IE: Harmon Drivecore. Transparent sound signature, switching power supply (Plug and play worldwide..and can handle voltage fluctuations with ease), quiet, rack mountable, low cost, high output from 6hz to 30khz, lightweight, efficient, etc, etc... Why not?

jeremymarcinko

Why not, because you need 1.4v to reach full output. Not a big deal there though as many amps require around that, but the low signal to noise ratio of the crown amps means lower dynamic range. In addition the amp is less loud at any given input level than a decent home amp which typically has a signal to noise ratio of greater than 120db compared to 103 or less on the crown. The crown has an enormous amount of distortion at .5% even the most basic htib's have less than that. The fan noise on pro amps also is not desirable. The crown amps are just made to be loud (with very efficient pa type speakers) and portable/lightweight. For home audio and ht dump the pa amps keep the Yamaha and invest in an amp that is better suited for the application. Enjoy.

tonyb

I would slide on Jeremy's thoughts. If there is something your missing in the sound, it isn't because your amps aren't being driven by an additional .4 volts.

villian

tonyb wrote: »

I would slide on Jeremy's thoughts. If there is something your missing in the sound, it isn't because your amps aren't being driven by an additional .4 volts.

I see his point, and I'm considering finding a decent HT consumer amp. But, to be fair..that .4v loss..while it may seem insignificant is responsible for a 50% loss in output power. 50%. That's crazy.

Besides, finding amps to comfortably power SRTs isn't exactly easy business!

tonyb

Sure it is, I can think of a dozen of the top of my head. I had a cinepro 3k6 amp on my SRT's for awhile, did just fine. Many parasound amps do well too and used are quit the bargain these days as well as B&k amps.

What you need is current, lots of it, not watts.

jeremymarcinko

I am not sure that your math is correct Villian. You are getting a nominal output of 1v with the Yamaha and you need 1.4v for max power. 1/1.4=.71...so you are getting approximately 71% of your max rated output or a 29% loss. This is also assuming that the ratio between input voltage and output is linear, which is very doubtful. To echo Skips comment a 50% loss in power is typically about 3db loss in volume. Therefore your 29% loss theoretically is costing you about 0.87db of volume. You are not losing much using the Yamaha.

tonyb

If memory serves, I think the only AVR's with an adjustable gain is Anthem's top receivers.

Erik Tracy

3db of unrealized power output (could also be considered headroom) by not driving the amp 100% may be considered a 'good thing'.

villian

Not going to lie..I find it slightly ironic that members of the same forum where people literally bake speaker wire in ovens, and use extremely overpriced cabling in the chase for potentially higher sound quality is also the forum that's saying a 50% reduction in power is no biggie when it comes to either SQ or SPL.

My goal is to attain the highest sound pressure level possible with my setup, while maintaining some semblance of quality. For those wondering. 3db is a big deal to me.

Nightfall

villian wrote: »

people literally bake speaker wire in ovens

LOL! Who's doing that?

jeremymarcinko

Let me ask you this, what happens when you turn it up loud?

How many watts is the amp rated?

motorhead43026

I like to get baked, then it all sounds good cheap cabling or not.

mikeyb128

villian wrote: »

Not going to lie..I find it slightly ironic that members of the same forum where people literally bake speaker wire in ovens, and use extremely overpriced cabling in the chase for potentially higher sound quality is also the forum that's saying a 50% reduction in power is no biggie when it comes to either SQ or SPL.

My goal is to attain the highest sound pressure level possible with my setup, while maintaining some semblance of quality. For those wondering. 3db is a big deal to me.

tonyb

villian wrote: »

Not going to lie..I find it slightly ironic that members of the same forum where people literally bake speaker wire in ovens, and use extremely overpriced cabling in the chase for potentially higher sound quality is also the forum that's saying a 50% reduction in power is no biggie when it comes to either SQ or SPL.

My goal is to attain the highest sound pressure level possible with my setup, while maintaining some semblance of quality. For those wondering. 3db is a big deal to me.

Nobody I know bakes wire in ovens, and I've been around awhile. LOL Your assertions are a tad bit on the "out in left field" side.

If SPL's is what your chasing, then maybe get some pro speakers to go with that amp that are built for that very purpose. Right tool for the right job and all that. The way your going about it is more akin to trying to stuff a square peg in a round hole.

Some pre amps have adjustable gain too, so that may also be a better route for you if you want to stick to that path.

motorhead43026

If you want quantity and some semblance of quality, go to a Chinese buffet.

motorhead43026

Like this Villian,

This is what I use to bake my cables, and yes I am in the cable matters camp.

tonyb

motorhead43026 wrote: »

Like this Villian,

This is what I use to bake my cables, and yes I am in the cable matters camp.

motorhead43026 wrote: »

Like this Villian,

This is what I use to bake my cables, and yes I am in the cable matters camp.

I call B.S......that says Meth lab all over it. LMAO !!

Gatecrasher

villian wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Besides, finding amps to comfortably power SRTs isn't exactly easy business!

They don't require that much power. That's the purpose of the powered subs. So you only have to drive the satellites.

The minimum recommended power to efficiently drive the sats is 100watts.

I power two pairs of SRTs with just my AVR and they will blow your face off if I crank them up. Very low distortion and just as advertised, "Performance without limits". I also have them in a bigger room than you do. That room you had pictured in another thread looked way too small for RT3000p's let alone SRTs. You should be able to fry your little brain cells with them that close.

Just because the SRTs are rated at a maximum of 1,000 watts doesn't mean you need a 1,000 watt amp to get the most out of them.

I'm glad I didn't have speakers like these when I was a kid or I'd probably be deaf by now.

Maybe there is something wrong with your SRTs? Bad amps maybe?

villian

DSkip wrote: »

Chasing the ultimate in SPL is dangerous.

That's exactly why it's exciting!

DSkip wrote: »

Thinking SPL has anything to do with true SQ is a very unfortunate view.

I missed the part where I said or inferred that? Obviously SQ has nothing to do with SPL. I get that. I would however like to achieve the maxiumum SPL possbile with a relatively decent amount of quality. Just like a real movie theater does. I know I can burp an audio system @66hz and achieve 152db of measured SPL all day long..but obviously I know that there's 19,999 audible frequencies that I wouldn't be hearing if I were just burping at 66hz all day long..

xcapri79 wrote: »

Is your room so large that you need to have your volume set to reference levels to get decent sound?

My room is actually relatively small (1,488.8 cubic feet if you want to be precise) but no..it sounds great at less than reference levels. I achieve theater reference level at -19db on my AVR, and my normal listening volume is -42db with the occasional push to -32db when I'm showing it off. If I'm REALLY showing it off I'll go all the way to -17db..which is when most people won't let me go any further!

xcapri79 wrote: »

What are you using for speakers?

2xSRT Main Satellites, 2x SRT Subwoofers, 1xSRT Center, 2x FX1000's, 2x RT2000p's.

jeremymarcinko wrote: »

Let me ask you this, what happens when you turn it up loud?

It gets pretty loud when I turn it up loud. 131db measured, but I'm pretty sure my meter is inaccurate after 120 or so (As most are. It's hard to find a truly accurate high SPL meter..) Doesn't clip the amp or strain the speakers though, so there's definately room for more.

jeremymarcinko wrote: »

How many watts is the amp rated?

The amps are rated 1,550w RMS @4ohms each, but I'm probably going to be upgrading this week to a plethora of amps rated @2,400w RMS @4ohms each. Just got in a bunch of other fun goodies too..Panamax Conditioners, HDMI cables, XLR cables, Coax, etc.

Nightfall

Wait, wait, wait. You're listening at a claimed 131db and you want louder? How do you fall asleep to the ringing every night?

villian

Nightfall wrote: »

Wait, wait, wait. You're listening at a claimed 131db and you want louder? How do you fall asleep to the ringing every night?

No ringing, but I do sleep right through the annoying things that I'm sure most people struggle with..Dogs barking, helicopters whirring overhead, car alarms being set off, police sirens, etc. Win, Win.

Kinda feels like one of those best kept secrets in life

Jokes aside my hearing is actually still pretty exceptional. I do an annual exam and I'm still perfectly fine..average at worst. Been exposed to 140+ DB's from various sources for a good 15 years straight now..or since I was just a little more than 10 years old! Damage to your hearing is just like dealing with hot water and scalding. It's all about the length of exposure (Time) vs the sound pressure level. Give yourself some time to cool off and you're ready to go again!

F1nut

There's two people in this thread that have no business owning SRT systems.

tonyb

F1nut wrote: »

There's two people in this thread that have no business owning SRT systems.

LOL

Villian,

I've had almost the exact setup, except with 3000p's where you have the 2000's. In a roughly 26 by 27 ft. room, it was bordering too much. You can literally pop drywall nails with that system and that was on a Cinepro amp.

Let me also remind you, since your quest is to go as loud as you possibly can, that your on a path to do some damage to those big boys, not to mention your hearing. I sure hope you have a line on SRT parts because Polk sure doesn't and the used market is pretty dry on them. Just sayin'.....

Gatecrasher

F1nut wrote: »

There's two people in this thread that have no business owning SRT systems.

I didn't know you owned an SRT system.

cooley53

DSkip wrote: »

What I've found with the Class D amps I've heard anyways is a lot of wall-slamming power, but no real weight to the sound and a very artificial presentation. Nothing sounds like it should to me with these amps.

Very glad to hear your description of that as I was considering a xls1000 and will now stay away and spend that $ to repair my Marantz sr8500. It has real weight and very good presentation. I can do without the wall slamming.

motorhead43026 wrote: »

Like this Villian,

This is what I use to bake my cables, and yes I am in the cable matters camp.

That is just too funny. I think I see anhydrous ammonia stains on that oven.

villian

tonyb wrote: »

F1nut wrote: »

There's two people in this thread that have no business owning SRT systems.

LOL

Villian,

I've had almost the exact setup, except with 3000p's where you have the 2000's. In a roughly 26 by 27 ft. room, it was bordering too much. You can literally pop drywall nails with that system and that was on a Cinepro amp.

Let me also remind you, since your quest is to go as loud as you possibly can, that your on a path to do some damage to those big boys, not to mention your hearing. I sure hope you have a line on SRT parts because Polk sure doesn't and the used market is pretty dry on them. Just sayin'.....

I'm glad to hear that we're both in similar boats! Those are all things I've considered lol. I actually have a pair of the rt3ks as well, but I've decided to keep those in a different room.. Mainly because of their look. I have another set of fx1ks that I plan to use once I finish my stadium/theater seating setup and then I plan to eventually use another pair of the SRTs for the SBL & SBR!

My biggest concern is actually the structural integrity of the rest of house since it sits on top of my theater (which is in the basement). Vibrations can wreck havoc on anything and everything. As anyone who has a ceiling joist mounted heavy punching bag quickly finds out! I've done a lot of reinforcing, cross bracing, sound deadening, and room treatments just to help prevent what I can. So far so good. Soon I'll be adding another 2 12" DIY subs just for the sub-20hz range too though!

tonyb

I was in that boat, not anymore. I found the SRT's to be fantastic on HT, but left me wanting on the musical side.