Bi-Amping with two AVR'S?

red2k

Hello everybody!

I am starting to get into all of this Bi-Amping stuff and have read enough to understand what is "proper" with the correct and usually expensive hardware. This is how I know it to be true: Source->High&Low filter (electronic crossover preferred)->Amp1->Mid/Highs and (separate) Amp2->Woofer-Lows DONE

I get why it has to be this way and I wish I could afford it all but instead my luck has given me 2 Pioneer SC-1527-k's (SC-65's) AVR's. I also have Polk RTiA9's as the fronts and RTi10's for the rears and a CSiA6 Center channel. Before anyone goes on about why the heck do I have under powered amps driving the whole darn system -I KNOW THIS lol.

Even though I don't have the "good stuff" driving these speakers, I'm trying to make the best of my situation. I'm thinking that one amp drives ALL the lows on all the speakers and the other amp does ALL the highs. From what I read these amps along with many others out there do have a Bi-Amping feature included which I have used and seems ok, but I'm wondering if I will get overall more power/drive hooking them up the way I suggested.

I also know that with my method I have mentioned I won't have a proper high/low crossover involved when implementing this method, but I would first like to know if that is needed for sure. Can't I just go the cheap route and let the passive crossover inside the speaker do the work to make the mid/highs for me without the need for a proper active crossover?

So is what I'm planning the best solution and going ahead with this could possibly offer more power to my under powered speakers?

Would choosing to use the Bi-Amping feature on both amps be a better solution? Example: Bi-amp enable the fronts on AVR 1 and AVR 2 would be Bi-Amp enabled for the rears, and both AVR's power the center channel? If that method is more preferred or will work better that's fine but the original method I suggested will allow for more speakers to be added in the future like setting up a 7 channel system that is fully Bi-Amped for example and would that in my case still be better one would think?

If I need a proper active crossover no matter what and that is just what is required no matter what that's too bad cuz I would like to try this, but if I can get away with the passive crossovers built into the speaker then I'm fine with that, I hope that it can be done that way as the $$ is completely tapped out for now lol.

I welcome all of your comments, and even though I haven't the ideal setup for my speaker system, I would like to know what configuration you would choose for more power with what I have to try and drive these crazy speakers a little better -thanks

F1nut

You cannot use two AVR's like that.

red2k

F1nut wrote: »

You cannot use two AVR's like that.

So is it impossible then? Isn't the Bi-Amping feature that's built into these amps basically the same thing? I read in my older Pioneer VSX-9130TXH manual on page 60

"Since both front and surround back speaker terminals
output the same audio, it doesn’t matter which set (front
or surround back) is powering which part (High or Low)
of the speaker."

And is this not true for all AVR's that support the Bi-Amping feature? And in my case would it not be almost the exact same thing if I were to hook it all up the way I suggested? The amps are exactly the same and I would just use the pre-outs out of one AVR and send all the analog channels to the other amp and all the channels would just be a duplicate of the originals and so then the passive crossovers built into the speakers would simply take care of the mid/high filter required to drive the speaker for correct low/high separation?

Thanks for your input btw

red2k

DSkip wrote: »

Sell one of the receivers and get a real amp with those funds.

Sorry I forgot to mention that these amps were given to me for free and the rear two rti10's and center channel were also free, all I did was buy the RTiA9's lol.

Just had a baby so ya, gunna make the best of what I have here

Nightfall

Just hook everything up to a single SC-1527K and use it as is - no biamping. Put the second 1527 in the closet as a backup in case anything goes wrong with the first one.

red2k

nbrowser wrote: »

AVR bi-amping is just marketing gobblygook to make you believe you can get more power to a particular pair of speakers, sadly the more channels used on an AVR, the less power from the power supply is available to the speakers, say you get an AVR proudly rated at 110 watts per channel...look closely at the actual fine print as it's usually followed by "Two channels driven at 1Khz with oh say 1.0%THD (Total Harmonic Distortion). You want more power for those A9s and do it right...like has been mentioned, sell one of the Pioneers and put that money into a solid 2 channel amplifier at a minimum, Parasound and B&K amps new or used work incredibly well with the RTiA series.

Yes, I've been reading all about that with what manufacturers like to state about the Bi-Amping feature and so on. I get that the amp only has so much power to put out since it has ONE main power source simply being split into 7 channels and so on.

I understand all that, but since I am proposing to hook up TWO amps one for ALL the LOWS and another for all the HIGHS separately, would it not stand to reason that since I now have two AVR's with two power sources driving all the speakers, I would most likely have more overall power going to these speakers, even if let's say I didn't try to push for a proper crossover for high and low separation?

I am sure it can work the way I have suggested it's just a matter of how well and will it cause some kind of issue I wonder?

F1nut

And is this not true for all AVR's that support the Bi-Amping feature?

Bi-amping, at a bare minimum, requires two separate power amplifiers, each with it's own power supply not a shared one like in every AVR. Saying an AVR can bi-amp is nothing more than marketing hype.

The amps are exactly the same and I would just use the pre-outs out of one AVR and send all the analog channels to the other amp and all the channels would just be a duplicate of the originals

It simply doesn't work like that. Using the pre-outs bypasses those channels inside the AVR passing the signal to the power amp.

F1nut

I am sure it can work the way I have suggested

It will not work, period.

red2k

F1nut wrote: »

It simply doesn't work like that. Using the pre-outs bypasses those channels inside the AVR passing the signal to the power amp.

In my case it does, either one of the AVR's I use can output to the pre-outs at the same time amplifying/powering all the speakers simultaneously So even if what I propose isn't "correct" in my case, it will still actually work. Just in case your wondering the volume dial adjusts the pre-outs output as well as the speakers connected to the same amp together, so the second amp and the first amp have the same graduation upon turning the volume up or down together Which is definitely needed here :P

red2k

Oh and I forgot to mention that of course the second AVR would have the volume turned up to 0.0 db's at all times acting like a power amp, and I would set the second amp to use a different remote code for control issues

Nightfall

Enjoy and let us know how it goes.

I want to see some pictures of your S2000

red2k

Er OOPS! I just checked the back of the AVR's and I forgot! they dont have friggin multi channel inputs! BUT my older Pioneer VSX-9130TXH DOES, so in this case I should be fine for my wild experiment I would think. And seeing as the older 9130TXH AVR appears to have slightly lower power output I will use it for the highs. Hope that works :P

Nightfall

Just FYI, they are AVR's not amplifiers.

My question about this is how many volts does your preouts put out vs how many volts can a regular analog input accept before distortion? Either way this is very unorthodox. I really would just hook everything up to a single AVR. You aren't likely to gain much, if anything, using both. Your tweeters use no more than a couple of watts, MAX.

I assure you there aren't four people in here saying not to bother doing this just for the giggles.

red2k

Nightfall wrote: »

Just FYI, they are AVR's not amplifiers.

My question about this is how many volts does your preouts put out vs how many volts can a regular analog input accept before distortion? Either way this is very unorthodox. I really would just hook everything up to a single AVR. You aren't likely to gain much, if anything, using both. Your tweeters use no more than a couple of watts, MAX.

I assure you there aren't four people in here saying not to bother doing this just for the giggles.

Ya I know that they are AVR's lol, so edited my comment to make you happy

The voltage output from the pre-outs are probably not high enough to affect the multi channel inputs in any bad way I would think, I used to pre-amp from a different AVR to the older 9130TXH in the same manner before as I used that 9130TXH as a simple "Amplifier" in the past and never had an issue, lets hope that the pre-outs act the same way as the other processor -sorry AVR, I had hooked up to it before.

I value everyone's opinion here because they are helping me in any case, but because they haven't tried it doesn't make it impossible or even better right? Plus there's no denying that hooking the system up this way wont at least yield some small returns, we cant say that it wont at all right? I'm just curious I guess, and on a no spend budget atm lol, and who knows, maybe I will find this to be a good thing that works well and others can benefit from what I'm trying do? I'm sure you and others here are correct in saying I will probably see minimal returns seeing how electronics/receivers work ect. but is it not worth trying?

That's why I was looking for support on this, just to see what is real and what isn't for this kind of scenario I don't see why it WONT work but I can see why you and others say not to bother. I wish I could spend thousands like others can to get these darn speakers rippin, but that's a little too far away for me atm lol :P

motorhead43026

^^what he said^^

tonyb

nbrowser wrote: »

red2k wrote: »

I wish I could spend thousands like others can to get these darn speakers rippin, but that's a little too far away for me atm lol :P

Can you afford say....$400-$500? If so, might I suggest looking into a used Parasound HCA-1200II or HCA-1500A amplifier and strap that bad boy to your RTiA9s...don't need to spend thousands to wake them up. Either of those two amps will allow you to get some serious sound out of the towers

This ^^^.

Hook up one receiver, use an amp for the fronts and let the receiver handle the rears. You just had a baby so playing super loud is probably out for awhile anyway.

Toolfan66

You just had a baby, you have a "S2000", and you refuse to sell one AVR to get a real Amp to power your A9's because of baby??

I see you have your priority's handled...

red2k

Toolfan66 wrote: »

You just had a baby, you have a "S2000", and you refuse to sell one AVR to get a real Amp to power your A9's because of baby??

I see you have your priority's handled...

How extremely presumptuous of you, I do have my priorities straight thank you very much, I love a troll. It makes life interesting, I never said I wouldnt sell my extra AVR to buy another, of course I've condisered that option, I just wanted to get everyones take on what would work with this scenario before considering something like that. Also I bought my rtiA9's for an amazing $500 for the pair, and checking with the boss it was a surprising YES to the purchase.

After struggling with a death in the family and just having a baby and switching jobs from less work where I live, life has been a little harder lately and I have never had an nice stereo setup in my life, EVER! So with the little free spending money I had after all the crap we have delt with, I get the go ahead on a great deal on a pair of crazy speakers to brighten my world a little, so I did it. I never ask for anything, and with all my spare cash going to my childs school fund and the rest to bills I would hope that Im doing the right thing. Now that I've EXPLAINED MY LIFE to you, maybe you could be just a tad more forgiving on my choice not to announce to the world that I havent sold my second AVR as of yet so could feed my child... Wow...

So as you can see, I do have my s*** together sir, and the next time you think that someone who has nothing gets a break to have something good in their life and just wants a little help, try not to be such jerk about it. Its none of your business what I do with my family for crying out loud. And that is the last thing I will ever say to you.

red2k

nbrowser wrote: »

Can you afford say....$400-$500? If so, might I suggest looking into a used Parasound HCA-1200II or HCA-1500A amplifier and strap that bad boy to your RTiA9s...don't need to spend thousands to wake them up. Either of those two amps will allow you to get some serious sound out of the towers

Thanks for the tip, I have read about Parasound and other amps that pair well for the rtiA9's before so I will consider it in the future for sure The amps you listed only have about 200 watts max output, but I read somewhere that hitting about 300 watts really opens up those speakers properly, is that true in your opinion? If some day I can afford it, I would like to invest in the proper amp for those towers.

red2k

tonyb wrote: »

Hook up one receiver, use an amp for the fronts and let the receiver handle the rears. You just had a baby so playing super loud is probably out for awhile anyway.

My rears are rti10'S and my center a csiA6, do you think that AVR or any AVR would be sufficient for those speakers then? The rears are up to 300 watts and the center up to 200, and you think those rears dont need extra kick either? I would be happy if all I have to do is power the fronts properly, it's way cheaper that way lol :P

Polkie2009

I still think you'd be better off with a single avr and buying a sweet power amp for the mains. I bet you can find something used around $150.00 .

red2k

Polkie2009 wrote: »

I still think you'd be better off with a single avr and buying a sweet power amp for the mains. I bet you can find something used around $150.00 .

That is the best idea Im sure, I will have to wait and see what I can do with the extra AVR, selling it Im sure won't have good returns so it almost seems a waste, but down the road selling it and pitching some money may be enough to get a proper amp. But for now, I wish I could use the AVR's for more juice... too bad it doesnt really work that way though lol If only it was like the old days and certain reveiver's had the ability to bridge for more power per channel.

Polkie2009

Yea, bridging amps though can bring on distortion and you don't want that.

Toolfan66

Deleted..

[Deleted User]

How about everyone use a little courtesy and fair mindedness when responding to another person's posting?

red2k

nbrowser wrote: »

It's not about how many total watts, it's the quality of those watts. Parasound does pair incredibly well with Polks new and old. I first got my HCA-1200II to power my RTiA7 towers, yep they are also power hungry but the amp just looked at them and laughed. It had more than enough in reserve to deal with even the most intense transients.

Now that very same amplifier is powering a pair of 30 year old Polk SDA (Stereo Dimensional Array) 2 speakers. They are 4 ohm speakers and a more difficult load to drive than the A7s or A9s are, they are also interconnected to eachother but this very same amplifier just deals with them like it's no big deal. Sure it's "rated" at 315 watts a channel into a 4 ohm nominal impedance. It's ace up the sleeve is the current it can produce, 57 amps peak to peak which deals with difficult loads. As nooshinjohn claims and myself as well, with the right source either of us can recreate a concert level environment in our living rooms.

Again, it's not about overall quantity, it's the quality. Heck I've got a 52 watts per channel at 8 ohm tube amplifier that can send the A7s into bliss quite easily, again quality over quantity.

Good advice, I see whats really important is the performance of the amp and not the watts per say, so what your saying is basically even a 200 watt amp could open up the rtiA9's properly and therefore I shouldnt worry as much about the watts as long as they hit the right quality level per watt.

Thats great advice, and I thank you for it! Its puts things into better perspective and also allows me to actually afford a decent amp for my needs down the road, which of course makes anyone happy with those power hungry rti's

red2k

Kenneth Swauger wrote: »

How about everyone use a little courtesy and fair mindedness when responding to another person's posting?

Sorry to all about my earlier post, I was taking what was said too personally, but just reading the arrogence and unfriendly attitude after everything that my family has had to deal with just hit home. I like to keep things professional and curtious at all times and I guess I just lost it a little there, so again I appoligize to those whom had to read through all of that

Nightfall

I paid $225 for a 225 watt/350 watt B&K 2 channel amp. I think I might have robbed the guy though.

red2k

Ok so with studying the various options with Parasound I found the model HCA-2200II and the new A21 which seem to be basically the same amp in most respects, and I also found a few HCA-3500's for sale used and their price was kinda high understandably. What I'm curious about is would you guys recommend the HCA-2200II or the A21 or is there some reason those models were not mentioned previously? I read that Parasound amps seem to take the edge off of the highs on rtiA9's and thats partly why they are recommended. Is there any other reasons for the Parasound or B&K brand in my case?

red2k

Also what would you guys think about the Emotiva XPA-2 or 2x XPA-1's? I just like to dream, and I would like to know what I should save for and hunt for when buying any of these used down the road Oh and the setup Im planning from my op may not take place as it sounds like even if it worked, it may be the same thing as just regular Bi-Amping from one AVR as if nothing changed. If I try it for the heck of it I will report back on findings just to satisfy curiosities lol.

tonyb

Some like the Emotiva brand, some not....especially with RTI speakers. They both tend to tilt towards a more bright top end. If that's your cup of tea, then it should work for you.

Others like to offset a piece that is bright with a piece slightly warmer. Which is why we usually recommend Parasound or B&K amps with RTI's.

Your problem, as I see it anyway, is you bought 4 big floor standing speakers but didn't consider what it takes to drive them properly....which we are trying to help you with. The bi-amp thing from a receiver isn't going to do anything for you except make each channel get less power. The heavy load is going to be on the front 2, which is why you can get by letting the receiver power the surrounds and putting an amp on the fronts. Either way, you need an amp for those fronts, so keep the volume down until you can acquire one or you may risk doing damage to the speakers or receiver or both.

BTW....the S2000 is a nice car, wouldn't mind one myself.