DSD files for music - worth it.......?

heiney9

So every once in awhile I get the upgrade bug. I have thoroughly enjoyed my modded Adcom GDA-600 for awhile now. Loving how "analog" it sounds while still giving a wide, deep soundstage and for it's uncanny natural tone, but..........

I can't help but think I might be missing something that newer technology, newer chipsets, newer gear might get me.

I am thinking of possible upgrading to this Supreme Dac. Not because I want or need more tubes in the mix (this is SS and Tube) but because of the dual Sabre DSD decoding chipset that seems to get rave reviews.

The Supreme Dac has been getting stellar reviews as well. It also affords op-amp rolling if one chooses.

So those of you running a computer audio program that passes DSD or upsamples DSD what are your thoughts?

H9

tonyb

My thoughts are you should get the sucker. Minimax gear is very mod-able, sounds good, and is priced right. Even though I'm personally not running DSD, I've had my ears on plenty and it does sound extremely Sacd like and with a more analog sound than other formats.

heiney9

I agree Tony, I have been very impressed with the EE MM pre-amp and now with the Tom Tutay modded one on the way, even more excited.

Then I stared reading about the Supreme Dac and it should fit my rig perfectly, because I need to be able to switch between more than one digital input. And if I want to run the tube part I can.

If I get the DAC I will run an HTPC via USB to the Supreme Dac. All controlled by a tablet or Android phone app of some sort.

Still getting my learn on. Now that the SQB products are not (easily) supported I am looking to move away from it for the main rig.

All this is an I haven't even seriously auditioned the Keces 131 dac.....lol

H9

SCompRacer

Well recorded DSD makes it worth it. Only issue is affording DSD music downloads. You can convert files which takes advantage of different filtering. It is not making a silk purse from a sows ear but it can sound better. Korg has free software but at one time you had to join twitter to activate it. Then every time you upgraded a file, it twittered that you did.

Main thing the DAC should do is play your flac well, then the DSD is icing. Multiple power supplies, dual Sabre chips, sounds familiar....fantastic combination in my book.

EDIT: I checked the site and not much nuts and bolts talk. Each Sabre chip has 8 DAC's. The 8 individual DAC's can be used to make an 8 channel DAC or consolidated in different pairings for multiple DAC's per channel (like 4 per channel in stereo application). Some manufacturers will assign some to two channel, some to head phone (I know OPPO did this). Be interesting to read the actual config. Each Sabre chip of mine has 8 DAC's assigned per channel.

They used to do dual DAC chips back in the beginning of digital, but chips were expensive then. Now some say you don't need it, some say hell yes it makes a worthy audible difference for the expense.

heiney9

Dskip, perhaps expound on the "yes and no" and less on the product pitch? And I don't mean that to be snarky at all. But I am more interested in DSD experiences as a whole vs. standard PCM, than I am in actual gear impressions.

If I go new DAC, the Supreme is the route I'm most likely to go. I have zero interest in anything having to do with headphones.

heiney9

Rich, thanks for the note on Facebook........haven't had a chance to really respond back to you. The info was helpful and it was nice to hear from you.

That's what I was thinking Rich, do PCM well and DSD will be icing whether it's a DSD recording or PCM to DSD conversion.

heiney9

I am looking for a pure DSD dac, no headhones, no tone contours, or extra settings for turbo or economy, no wall wart, etc. It must also have atleast 1 other digital input, preferably 2. I like to run my Dish TV box as well as the TV through it occasionally for movies, etc.

H9

SCompRacer

Wonder what USB module they use. You can purchase some nice ones already built that isolate and reclock, or they did their own. I got a nice one here I haven't tried yet... When I get time I'll try and find a nice pic of the innards of this DAC you are considering.

SCompRacer

USB input wise, looks like a potato flip flop type chip for isolation and I see a couple of shiny things that are probably crystals (isolation wihout reclocking adds latency). I like the external tube. No popping the hood to change, if desired.

heiney9

I haven't found a larger pic of the innards. People seem to be swapping op-amps w/discrete op-amps as well. Burson, Dexa and Sparkoslabs. It uses 2 single and 2 duals. But that can get expensive quick, but it's just another level of sound tailoring.

It's a lot of scratch for something I haven't auditioned. They don't hold their value like a more well known manufacturer so I'd like to find one used......so far no luck. Direct from Morningstar Audio it's $1350. If I end up not liking it I'd probably lose a fair chunk of $$.

heiney9

I have been extremely impressed with the musicality of my EE MM pre-amp and I assume the same careful design and parts carryover to the other products.

BlueFox

I have only purchased one DSD download so far, a Canned Heat recording from the late 60s - early 70s, and it does sound pretty good. However, I have four issues with DSD. One, it costs too much. Two, the files take up too much room. Three, the jury is still out on whether it will ever be anything other than a niche product. Four, I already own everything, but in PCM, offered in DSD that I want. The Canned Heat album was the only thing I felt like spending money on.

However, if it takes off and new releases are offered in DSD then I probably will get some more.

heiney9

BlueFox what about PCM converted to DSD? Have you tried that? It's my understanding this is a computer only thing because of the audio player. There are a couple audio players that use FLAC files and take the PCM and convert it to DSD and so far from what little I've read in many cases the sound is "better" than PCM.

heiney9

At this point I;m thinking the DSD as icing on the cake, but I still want to understand how it's implemented and if it consistently is better than really good PCM.

BlueFox

heiney9 wrote: »

BlueFox what about PCM converted to DSD? Have you tried that?

The Lumin can do that on the fly, and I was using it for a bit. The impression I had was that it was a bit 'smoother', but at the end of the day I went back to 'Native' on file types as it just sounded a bit better unconverted. Of course, there might be individual tracks that sound better as DSD, but it is too much of a pain to individually compare each track.

I look at changing to DSD as being like upsampling. It might be worthwhile sometimes, but you aren't going to add any new info to the file. I would really like to get a file that was recorded, mastered, and released in DSD as a baseline. However, I have read that you cannot master a file in DSD, but need to convert it to PCM, do whatever, and then convert it back to DSD.

This DSD vs PCM gets a lot of play on other sites, and some of those guys really get down into technical details, and you end up wondering which way is up.

tonyb

heiney9 wrote: »

At this point I;m thinking the DSD as icing on the cake, but I still want to understand how it's implemented and if it consistently is better than really good PCM.

Same rules apply here Brock. Implementation, as you already know is key. Some will do it well, others not so much. Recordings also in DSD are going to vary as with any of the other formats for the obvious reasons we've talked to death.

My advice.....jump in with both feet, not one, and use your judgment with recordings as you already do. If you can find a demo cheaper, all the better in case you have to re-sell.

Also, don't rule out Teac or Sony either, maybe not household hi-end names but they are putting out good sounding products lately. I know you want to stick to what you already know, so grab the minimax and fill us in.

RamZet

Schiit audio makes a DSD player. It's cheap so if you decide DSD isn't for you , you're only out 100 bucks.

SCompRacer

Honestly, there has been so much written on both sides of the DSD/PCM thing. It's like make a choice, pay your money. If buying DSD files, you keep paying money...

Implementation and quality of recording will always come into play. The only files I ever converted to DSD were tracks "Left", "Right" and "Both" when testing if I solved the DSD channel swap issue in my Denon 3910 when outputting native DSD to my DAC.

Someday I'd like to try and convert some music files to DSD and compare, but time is scarce since last September. I have some DSD tracks from Blue Coast. SACD's, I play in my 3910 which outputs DSD to my DAC.

heiney9

Maybe I should forget about DSD and look for a used Minimax Dac Plus. Looks like everything I want minus DSD. It gets stellar reviews as well. I can be patient and wait for one to come up FS.

H9

WLDock

DSkip wrote: »

What I really want to hear now is the Marantz DAC:
http://www.us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=HiFiComponents&SubCatId=0&ProductId=HDDAC1

That's the hot DAC! So tough to sort through DAC's...need quality time and $$$. Would love to listen that Marantz , The Benchmark products, the Teac-UD-501, the OPPO 105, HA-1, etc. all in the same room. When I jump it would be nice to be close to the bullseye as possible....really want to listen to more DACs with built in Preamps direct to amps. On paper I like the idea of that mated with a hybrid amp like the Vincent. It could be a nice and simple way to get out the gates.....

File types are even more complex...............

pearsall001

Long story short Brock...DSD is a stellar version that will have you craving more. The whole downside is that it will cost you big time! If you have deep pockets then it's not a big deal. Me personally I can live without it but at the same time I eagerly await the day that the prices are more in line with my wallet. Even then though I'll probably just dabble with it. Redbook thru the TEAC is amazing & quite satisfying. But it is nice knowing that your DAC has that capability if you so choose.

heiney9

I hear ya Phil, but I'm not one to spend loads of money on music purchases. If I get a DSD capable dac, fine..........if not, fine too.

I was going to look at getting a First Watt F6 amp as my next upgrade, but I think the EE MM Dac is a better choice as it's a more logical choice for the next upgrade. Perhaps after that, I'll look at a new Pass or First Watt amp.

Nothing wrong with the Pass Aleph 30, but you know how that upgrade thing sneaks in sometimes. Especially when your audio coffers are full again.....lol.

H9

steveinaz

My big beef with chasing formats (DSD) is that I learned long ago, it's all about the mastering. I've heard 16/44 that was excellent, and I've heard 24/96 that was disappointing. A new format isn't going to "promise" anything. Just my 2 cents.

heiney9

It's not so much "chasing it" as it is making sure I can future proof it as much as possible. I realize future proofing in this hobby is hard to do, but one can try.

I think I've settled on not having to have DSD.

H9

steveinaz

I think that is a wise choice.

tonyb

steveinaz wrote: »

My big beef with chasing formats (DSD) is that I learned long ago, it's all about the mastering. I've heard 16/44 that was excellent, and I've heard 24/96 that was disappointing. A new format isn't going to "promise" anything. Just my 2 cents.

Bingo.....which is why I'm not chasing it either. At some point in this hobby of ours, you just have to sit back and enjoy the tunes and stop chasing gear/formats.

heiney9

Yeah, except my dac is from the 90's. Granted it sounds great since it's been modded. But, I think it's time to explore something new. The EE Minimax Pre has been stellar, I assume the same for their dac. Problem is low volume, means you have to be patient to find exactly what you want on the used market.

H9

tonyb

We know your a patient dude Brock, given how long it takes you to post reviews.

heiney9

You HAVE to be patient if you want to get a bargain. Although, I've been know to just buy it! The Dac Supreme is ready to buy at full retail!!

The Tom Tutay modded Pre should be here today, who knows when I'll get around to a review....lol. Probably in the Fall