Stereo sub - recommendations

EndersShadow
EndersShadow Posts: 17,596
edited June 2015 in Speakers
So I've debated for a decent amount of time going with stereo subs.

I'm looking for low cost options, even DIY that will go low but wont cost and arm and a leg. Since these are for music, I'm thinking sealed would likely be easiest to do myself if I go DIY. I'm looking for something that is NOT HUGE. I would be happy with a somewhat flat response down to 30hz sealed, lower is better but with sealed you need a HUGE box, and I dont want to have one.

I REQUIRE both RCA and high (speaker) level inputs so I can use any integrated regardless of if it has a sub out.

So if you had say 500 bucks for the set, what would you get and why. I'm not against ported, just think sealed will be a bit more musical.

Right now I'm running the RTA 11TL's and will likely be doing that for the near future, as well as my elemental designs a2-300 (which will be impossible to find another of).

So off to the races......
"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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Comments

  • mikeyb128
    mikeyb128 Posts: 2,885
    I feel like 500 is a tight budget. I just recently toyed with the idea of rel t5, but people still want 4-500$ for these things. The psw 111 can be had for cheap. My 2 channel rig is in my living room, I didn't want huge subs either, I also have no room. I broke down and bought an svs sb1000. It's a 13 inch cube. I will let you know how it performs when I get it. The plan is another one in a few months.
    2 channel:
    Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
    Theater:
    Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables.

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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    Can't go wrong with the old Peerless XLS, 10", 12" sealed or PR.
    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,596
    ^Yeah, I'm looking at parts express stuff, thinking 8 or 10" drivers in a sonotube, got a couple contenders.

    Paired with a 300 watt bash amp might be good...

    WinISD tonight to see what it looks like....
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    Yep, two XLS 10's with 300 watts each will do it. Just great sounding subs. Tons of projects and feedback around the net....search google image.
    I actually never heard them in a home...only in vehicles.
    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,596
    WLDock wrote: »
    Yep, two XLS 10's with 300 watts each will do it. Just great sounding subs. Tons of projects and feedback around the net....search google image.
    I actually never heard them in a home...only in vehicles.

    Yeah, for right now THESE ONES have me intrigued. Less than 100, dont need a huge box (but I could do 12" diameter sonotube of say 34" tall) and have a decently low FS in a vented enclosure, and dont need squat for power compared to the other XLS Peerless (which is double the price and close to Dayton 10" HF sub range).


    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    wow, $98 bucks...can't beat that.
    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,596
    WLDock wrote: »
    wow, $98 bucks...can't beat that.

    Yeah, but lets see what WINISD has to say about their output lol..... at a max RMS of 150 and a efficiency of 81... well we will see....
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,596
    edited June 2015
    And another "interesting" choice would be these guys, under 120 each, decent FS, lots of power handling and good excursion.... plus meant for smaller boxes..

    Sundown Audio Ev2 10 Subwoofer E10v2 500W E SERIES

    Sundown Audio Ev2 12 Subwoofer E12v2 500W E SERIES

    **Interesting side note** Sundown Audio makes all the motors and baskets for Stereo Integrity...... IIRC they even recently took over ALL the manufacturing for Stereo Integrity, hence the resemblance between the two.....
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,092
    Integrating subs into a 2 channel system for music is a daunting task, in fact it's probably the hardest thing to do & do it correctly. For me personally I would only consider the DIY route if it was strictly for HT where it's only task was to go Boom! Boom!. The level of technology that goes into a flagship sub that can master the task of 2 channel music is incredible. Shucks, most professional companies can't even get it right.

    I believe that the number one reason guys scoff at subs for 2 channel is because they either had a run of the mill sub or heard a sub par sub in someone elses system & I can bet you the setup was lousy to boot. Of course you'll walk away with a bad taste in your mouth after hearing something like that.

    I would save up until I could get my hands on a worthy sub for 2 channel listening (used is your friend). I would look at: Velodyne, REL, JL Audio, Rythmik, SVS, Power Sound Audio, Martin Logan just to name a few. I just couldn't imagine trying to duplicate the performance of my twin Velo's via the DIY route. Just my thoughts, your mileage will of course vary.

    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • gce
    gce Posts: 2,158
    I was thinking that a sub would benefit in a 2 channel too but I've heard that most music doesn't have much content below 40Hz depending on what you are listening to. If you're into say orchestra music with pipe organs that can go deeper then 40Hz a subwoofer in a 2 channel would be a benefit.
    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,596
    Thanks @pearsall001 and @gce You are both right...

    The reason I'm looking at DIY is for the cost if I can get a decent sub. I am also looking to build stereo subs for the following fact - I'm debating move to bookshelf speakers and I like my bass most of the time....

    I listen to lots of stuff many of you would not find enjoyable, mainly dubstep and electronic stuff (Skrillex, Crystal Method, Deadmau5) which actually does go that deep, and I want to be able to pressurize my loft area, which due to its layout means a lot of sub to fill it "right".

    I've looked at SVS but unless I can find some of their powered cylinders for what I consider "cheap" its just not an option to go with them. However the idea of a Sonotube is NOT one I'm unfamiliar with, its just finding the right driver and amp combo.

    Hence the DIY portion. I'm hoping to spend maybe 500 or less for 2 subs, but be able to compete with other subs that are a bunch more.

    My goal is to roll them in around 80-100 hz so I can focus on getting bookies that are great a mids and highs but dont necessarily dig down that deep....
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,092
    gce wrote: »
    I was thinking that a sub would benefit in a 2 channel too but I've heard that most music doesn't have much content below 40Hz depending on what you are listening to. If you're into say orchestra music with pipe organs that can go deeper then 40Hz a subwoofer in a 2 channel would be a benefit.

    That my friend is only the tip of the iceberg as to the benefits of what adding a quality sub/subs to a 2 channel system will do. The musical benefits (when done right) are astonishing...I see you have the 703's which in their own right are outstanding bookies, adding a pair of quality subs will elevate their performance like you've never heard before. It's not all about the low end bass, that's just the beginning!

    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • gce
    gce Posts: 2,158
    So its about the quality of the bass...gotcha! I know my 703's can only go as low as maybe 50Hz so I'll keep an eye on this thread and see what Enders comes up with.
    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,596
    So in looking around REL subs won't work as they don't have speaker level inputs that work like a normal sub that I can see.

    Their speaker level connects to the left pos & neg and then the right pos meaning you can't really run them as duals.

    Additionally because there is no speaker output I can't use the crossover in the sub to keep the speaker from getting a full range signal.

    Correct me if I'm wrong though...
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited June 2015
    pearsall001 wrote: »
    Integrating subs into a 2 channel system for music is a daunting task, in fact it's probably the hardest thing to do & do it correctly. For me personally I would only consider the DIY route if it was strictly for HT where it's only task was to go Boom! Boom!. The level of technology that goes into a flagship sub that can master the task of 2 channel music is incredible. Shucks, most professional companies can't even get it right.

    I believe that the number one reason guys scoff at subs for 2 channel is because they either had a run of the mill sub or heard a sub par sub in someone elses system & I can bet you the setup was lousy to boot. Of course you'll walk away with a bad taste in your mouth after hearing something like that.

    I would save up until I could get my hands on a worthy sub for 2 channel listening (used is your friend). I would look at: Velodyne, REL, JL Audio, Rythmik, SVS, Power Sound Audio, Martin Logan just to name a few. I just couldn't imagine trying to duplicate the performance of my twin Velo's via the DIY route. Just my thoughts, your mileage will of course vary.

    Interesting! I think there are many out there that feel exactly as you do regarding two channel audio and subs. However, focusing on just the sub is only one part of the puzzle. However, since we are on just subs.....The legendary Peerless XLS, XXLS is a raw DIY driver that for years has been the epitome of an audiophile sub-woofer driver. Low Qts, high BL, high moving mass, low harmonic distortion, wide freq response, excellent KLIPPEL measurements, etc. These subs in sealed boxes combined with a little boost on the low end with EQ and from the standing waves in the room should get one pretty close to flat. Its VERY possible to have audiophile bass for 2 ch that could match and even exceed some of the popular brands out there.....especially in a modern day market with raw drivers that have even more clean stroke than even the old Peerless.

    So, what I've really said here is it takes more than just a good sub to do it "right." All of the name brand subs out there are no different than a good well designed DIY sub if
    1) not properly integrated with the main speakers
    2) not properly placed in the room
    3) not properly adapted to the room either in the designed freq response and/or EQ, room correction, room treatments.

    Many in the 2 ch world make ugly faces when you say the word "SUBWOOFER." Yet, open minded 2 ch lovers after the a full bottom octave have embraced modern design and engineering. Computer optimized drivers, Klippel R&D, etc has crated a market of competent products not just in the prefab world but in the DIY world also. Add in some knowledge that is so readily available today mixed in with affordable DSP room correction software and you have the makings of a more "accurate" subwoofer.

    If the JL Audio Gotham is one of the better examples of a modern accurate preassembled subwoofer , then one can argue that a knowledgeable soul can assemble the makings of a competent accurate sub using DIY parts. One really does not have to look too hard......Partsexpress, Madisound, miniDSP, etc. offer some very high performance parts.

    AuraSound NS18-992-4A - Ultra low distortion sub
    http://www.parts-express.com/aurasound-ns18-992-4a-18-pro-subwoofer-driver-4-ohm--296-260

    PWR-DSP1 - 2400 watt DSP control plate amp
    http://www.minidsp.com/products/plate-amplifiers/pwr-dsp1

    The above parts in the "right" hands, in the "right" room mated in the "right" system has the potential for some amazing clean accurate bass in its own DIY right!

    Many of the top sub companies are founded by DIY's audiophile types(Those that are willing to get their hands dirty in the science and art of audio). No matter how good of a preassembled sub they offer today, the buyer still needs to go the distance to make it sound good in the home.
    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    As an aside to Phil, above; we had a guy here who was running FOUR subs in one room. lol Basically, you can do whatever the F.. you want to do as long as you KNOW what you are doing! lol
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • Polkie2009
    Polkie2009 Posts: 3,834
    VMPS had some nice passive sealed subs designed for two channel use. I was hoping REL had something that would work for you Dan, I didn't know they didn't have the speaker levels inputs though. :(
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,596
    Yes, VMPS did, but obviously those are now few and far between.

    But I'm looking around....

    My main concern is if it requires a pro amp, I have to add more crap to my chain to get the voltages to play nice (and then I lose speaker inputs) or a plate amp which I like better....

    We will see where this goes, but I may just deal with the sub I have now for now, sell it and use that money to build a sonotube or two that don't need tons of power... but dont know.....

    Its still a guessing game at this point I guess lol...
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,596
    yeah I've seen that lol....

    I dont have that kinda space for it.....

    I've HIGHLY debated Infinite Baffle since this room has direct to the attic.... but we will see.....
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,596
    edited June 2015
    nbrowser wrote: »
    EndersShadow wrote: »
    yeah I've seen that lol.... Good!

    I dont have that kinda space for it..... Make room!

    I've HIGHLY debated Infinite Baffle since this room has direct to the attic.... but we will see..... hrmmm subs in the ceiling...do like 10 and a kilowatt to each....dubstep will never sound better!

    Cant physically make room that isnt here lol. I'm dealing with a 12 deep x 14 1/2 wide room that is a loft so the physical space I need to fill with bass is like double that... but I dont have any more floor space to hold something like that lol.

    I think OB is likely going to be my best bet unless I can find some other way to do it...

    2 2 x 18 Fi OB or Dayton drivers may just be what I have to do lol........

    Just doing 4 of these subs IB models VERY well (~117 db from 100 - 25hz where it starts to slope off)... and just need 250 watts TOTAL for a really flat SPL response...

    That I can likely do....

    http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-ib385-8-15-infinite-baffle-subwoofer--295-455
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • rpf65
    rpf65 Posts: 2,127
    Have you looked at HSU VTF1-Mk2?
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,596
    edited June 2015
    DSkip wrote: »
    I'm going to recommend you put the sub on hiatus until you can up your budget. If you're going to have some nice bookies like you say you're going to have, you're going to want to know what they're capable of, and any cheap sub, DIY or prefabbed, simply won't pair well with a quality bookie. With the way bookies have been being built lately, I think you'd want at least a quality 10" driver, preferably a 12" driver.

    Take that $500 and throw it into a speaker for now. Once those are in place and are as good as you can get them, then its time for subs.

    Skip the IB is a 15" driver that's flat from 100 to 20hz at 117 spl And only 123 a pop. Needs less than 100 watts x 2 to drive 4 them to that level and 50 x 2 to drive 2 to around 110..

    The plan is to have then for use when needed but switched off a large majority of the time.

    But your probably right for now just hold tight...
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
    If you can find a used velodyne spl 10 or 12 thats been recapped, ( they get a hum in the power supply) would fit the bill. Very musical, sealed, speaker and rca.
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited June 2015
    Controlling the cone is all about the motor. To achieve excellent transient response with a large cone, you need low inductance and distortion. AE Speakers (Acoustic Elegance) makes some very good IB and dipole drivers.
    http://www.aespeakers.com/products.php
    Read about their Lambda Motor here:
    http://www.aespeakers.com/Lambda001-1.php

    Their drivers are used in some very serious projects.
    http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3452
    http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=701
    http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1661
    http://ibsubwoofer.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-01-01T00:00:00+01:00&updated-max=2008-01-01T00:00:00+01:00&max-results=44

    Still, I think two 10" or 12" Peerless XLS is the way to go with the current budget. Wide frequency range....clean up into the midbass range. Perfect for mating with bookies...regardless of the quality.

    Just a handfull of the tons of projects these drivers have been used in over the years.
    http://www.sensibleaudio.dk/SubZero/SubZero.htm
    http://www.customanalogue.com/sub_index.htm
    http://www.gattiweb.com/samson_design.html
    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/96631-building-audiophile-sub-peerlesss-xxls-830845-a.html
    Even used in a Linkwitz designed dipole sub
    http://www.linkwitzlab.com/woofer3.htm
    Post edited by WLDock on
    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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  • Polkie2009
    Polkie2009 Posts: 3,834
    I used to run 2 used M&K V2B 12" sealed subs for music . Sounded very nice and didn't cost me over $250.00 . Have to agree, 10" and 12" sealed subs give nice tight bass.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,092
    erniejade wrote: »
    If you can find a used velodyne spl 10 or 12 thats been recapped, ( they get a hum in the power supply) would fit the bill. Very musical, sealed, speaker and rca.

    I second the Velodyne SPL12subs...explosive for HT & yet oh so musical for 2 channel music. A perfect combination for both venues. I can't however attest to any "hum" issue from the power supply or having to be recapped? I bought both of mine in '08 & never had an issue. They're tough to find though.

    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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