A Splendid Package from Trey!

Moose68Bash

nbrowser wrote: »

Moose, great to read your thoughts on your upgraded SDAs, I recently got my fist pair completely bone stock. Makes me long to do some upgrades myself once I get accustomed to what these speakers can do.

I was convinced after my last round of upgrades, but I'm now a zealot about it after Trey's wizardry combined with the RD0198-1 upgrade.

I'd say, don't wait -- JUST DO IT!

Moose68Bash

LOL!

Life is short!

Live it while you can!

BlueBirdMusic

Love this thread! I'm impressed with the "Wife Factor" involvement.
Harry
GA

Moose68Bash

nbr

nbrowser wrote: »

So true, life is short. I do have plans for a crossover refresh with new parts, granted not to a VR3 level but something mild. Also if I can squeeze it, replace the stereo tweeters with the drop in RD0-194s as my SDAs cannot be TL'ed. Rounding out my plans, spike em. I won't bother replacing the dimensional SL-2000s as one came blown, the other got disconnected with advice from westmassguy. Dynamatting the baskets is also in the cards as is something for the magnets as Power Grab for some reason isn't available in Canada... Modestly budgeted for about $300 up here on speakers I got for $120 and they displaced modern RTiA7 towers easily, I love em.

nbrowser,

Sounds like a plan! You'll be very happy with the results!

I wish somebody would explain the reason that the original SDA SRSs cannot be TL'd. It seems to me that if you can replace all the crossover components, the SDA inductor, and the tweeters, you ought to be able to TL them.

I'm not at home, so I can't check the SDA manual DarqueKnight authored. The RD0198-1 tweeters are drop-in replacements. Perhaps, the drivers are different, but it seems even they could be replaced with used ones off eBay (when they occasionally come up for sale).

Sorry, I'm just rambling and ruminating.

You got a great deal on your SDAs, and you'll get a great return on your investment in the mods you do!

Moose68Bash

BlueBirdMusic wrote: »

Love this thread! I'm impressed with the "Wife Factor" involvement.
Harry
GA

While my wife occasionally frequently thinks I go off the deep end, she is always willing to help me execute my projects -- and I frequently need her help. You should have seen us with the furniture dolly trying to place the SDA SRSs just right to set them down on the spikes and cups without damaging the floor!

It's more fun to be a team!

nikonik

I wish somebody would explain the reason that the original SDA SRSs cannot be TL'd. It seems to me that if you can replace all the crossover components, the SDA inductor, and the tweeters, you ought to be able to TL them.

I'm not at home, so I can't check the SDA manual DarqueKnight authored. The RD0198-1 tweeters are drop-in replacements. Perhaps, the drivers are different, but it seems even they could be replaced with used ones off eBay (when they occasionally come up for sale).

Sorry, I'm just rambling and ruminating.

You got a great deal on your SDAs, and you'll get a great return on your investment in the mods you do! [/quote]

First of all, I'm glad you are stoked on your speakers and modifications. Love the pics of speakers and gear.
Second, I also asked about making the SDA SRS into TL as that was the suggested modification for several speakers. I was less expensive to make into a TL speaker vs keeping it a SRS w new crossovers. I considered changing tweeters to 198, replacing half of the 6503 to 6511 and the crossover to a 1.2. Sounds simple to both of us but I couldn't get beyond what you know already. I was told the cabinets were different inside and that could play a role in sound. To me, it doesn't seem like a big factor. Perhaps this is where the passive radiator comes into play but I was willing to take the challenge and try it because the cost of a new crossover plus new 194 tweeters was going to be more than a 1.2T mod. Unfortunately, I still kept them the same due to the fact that reference schematics would match the information in the speaker.

On the brighter side, here is what I'm working on at moment. Working the kinks out and making it to use the NL4 connector. Im having them custom made and sine I have the 1.2TL and SDA SRS, I am having my two kids names engraved on them as these will be passed on to them.

Moose68Bash

I just consulted DarqueKnight's SDA Handbook on the Vr3 Mods website. The handbook explains changes from the original SDA SRSs through the SDA SRS 1.2s to the SDA SRS 1.2tls.

The SDA drivers were changed from MW6503s to MW6511s in the 1.2s/1.2tls. In addition, there were improvements in the cabinet design to decrease resonance -- e.g., internal bracing and bezel design and construction.

It would seem to me, in my relative ignorance, that if MW6511s (eight of them) could be found, SDA SRSs could be upgraded to SDA SRS 1.2tls, with the caveat that there might be compromises on the cabinet construction (e.g., no new bezel to match the 1.2tl design).

Typically, these days during modifications the SDA interconnect is fitted with Neutrik connectors which would also seem to eliminate the problem of replacing the blade/blade SDA SRS interconnect with the later version pin/blade interconnect found in the SRS1.2s and 1.2tls.

I'm the first to admit that those with real knowledge of these points can offer real clarity about this matter.

Moose68Bash

Just now hitting about 100 hours on the new crossovers, SDA inductors and SDA interconnects.

The speakers are beginning to open up. Most noticeably for my wife and I are the differences we hear in old, familiar CDs:

Several old CDS that we had deemed poor recordings have really come alive. Some Nat King Cole, Dave Brubech, Elvis, The Eagles, Katsaris playing Mozart, for example, that we listened too infrequently because the sound seemed weak and veiled now sound rich and clear.

{The Elvis album "Inspirational" had my wife asking me about how men reacted to his voice when they first heard him, and she also could not stop talking about the unique and extraordinary quality of his voice. This from a recording I dug out of the $5.00 bin at WalMart! See a thread I started on this subject.)

Moreover, we listen to virtually every recording with the volume set at about two-thirds the level at which we used to -- with no loss of detail or richness. For example: Yo-Yo Ma's "Songs of Joy and Peace."

The soundstage is wider, deeper, higher than before, and the placement of sound sources is more defined and precise -- including complex orchestral pieces and small ensembles. For example: "Cobb's Corner" album noted above was rendered as if it were "theater" in the round, which made sense after I saw how Chesky recorded it with the microphone essentially at the center of a semicircle with the four instruments on the perimeter of the semicircle.

Much more air between instruments and voices.

I'm really anxious to get through the 200-250 hours Trey says are necessary to get the crossovers and inductors really broken in!

More to come.

oldrocker

Was wondering how the project was shaping up.
So glad to hear your joy and appreciation on the audio journey you've
embarked upon.

Neat birthday gift the Misses got you. Always wanted to try and play the Cello myself....

VR3

That is great Phil! I am excited to hear your 200-250 hour impression. For me it was like a light switch was hit, the sound was just expansive

Moose68Bash

Thank you, old rocker.

Trey, you better get back to your remodeling! :-)

Moose68Bash

I've now got about 140 hours on the new crossovers, SDA inductors, RD0-198-1 tweeters, internal wiring, etc.

The sound is bigger, richer more detailed, and more precise. It continues to improve as time accumulates. I'm only sorry that my wife and I have had to do quite a bit of traveling during the past month, which has meant too much shutting down and starting up the system and too little continuous listening. (Because power interruptions are a fact of life in our area of New Hampshire, I always fully disconnect everything when we leave for more than a day.)

Friday evening, as part of my sojourn through my wife's birthday present to me (Yo-Yo Ma's boxed set "30 Years Outside the Box"), I played for the first time "Japanese Melodies," CD 14 out of 90.

This CD is extraordinary, if your taste runs to "fusion" music. It blends Japanese and Western traditions and instruments into some beautiful melodies, as the title suggests.

Remarkable to me were the following:

1. The dimensions of the soundstage. The breadth was wider than I had ever observed. At one point, I turned my head because the sound of "bells" or "chimes" (I'm not sure what they were) sounded so far outside the speakers to the right. Some instruments were coming from higher and deeper within the soundstage than ever before. Pro Musica Nipponia accompanies Yo-Yo Ma, and the rendition of the larger ensemble was extraordinary. I did not play this CD on my system before the upgrades, so I cannot make an A-to-B comparison, but I can say that I had never before experienced this kind of soundstage presentation with my system.
2. The separation of sound sources was also remarkable. The unusual instruments appeared, precisely located, in different positions on the stage, were stable, and were separated by palpable "space," if that makes sense. I found my self tempted to move my head as the source moved around the stage, just as I would at a live performance when I heard an unusual instrument and wanted to locate it in the ensemble.
3. The timbres of all the instruments was extraordinarily clear. If I were familiar with all the instruments used in making this music, I am sure I could name them. Those with which I was familiar were as if they were sitting in my family room playing for me. More important, the "bells" and "chimes" tinkled and shimmered -- extrordinary sound! The final track "Chiran-Bushi" was one of the most pleasing musical, audiophile experiences I have ever heard!

I am, as you can tell, extremely pleased with Trey's latest work of art and engineering! And, I can't wait to hear what the next 100 hours unfolds!

More to come!

If you do not have the CD "Japanese Melodies" and your taste runs at all that direction, you might want to pick it up. It is great sound and great music!

VR3

That is great Phil! I am really looking forward to the 250 hour mark, in my experience, there comes a point with the MR where it just "opens up" to a whole new level.

leftwinger57

Moosebash, I also had my x-overs redone by Trey and I didn't even go the whole Soniccap route due to financial reasons. Anyway my 2Bs sound amazing but we seem to have a similar logistical situation here. Most here say any SDA needs both sides wide open and as you will it's impossible in my house as in yours w/ the built ins. Do you feel your missing anything, because I do not.

Moose68Bash

leftwinger57 wrote: »

Moosebash, I also had my x-overs redone by Trey and I didn't even go the whole Soniccap route due to financial reasons. Anyway my 2Bs sound amazing but we seem to have a similar logistical situation here. Most here say any SDA needs both sides wide open and as you will it's impossible in my house as in yours w/ the built ins. Do you feel your missing anything, because I do not.

It's hard to tell what effect the built-ins are having on the sound, because the only other position for the speakers that I have heard and can reasonably use for comparison is when they are sitting out from the wall by a couple of feet. While they were there, I was definitely losing bass.

As the speakers are now situated, the baffles of the speakers are about three inches forward of the cabinets on each side. That may help mitigate consequences of the built-ins being so close to the sides of the speakers. I don't know.

However, on the right side, we have three windows that are angled out into the room like "facets." On the left side we have wide open space for about 18 feet to the nearest wall. As a result of this configuration of the room, I think I get reflection from the "faceted" windows the emphasizes the right channel.

I've addressed this by adjusting the balance, which unfortunately shifts the center of the soundstage to the left, and I find that less pleasing than the emphasis of the right channel without the rebalancing. This effect is also far more noticeable while playing some recordings vs. others.

I've also tried placing damping materials over the windows (only as a test, of course, to see whether curtains or similar would help). I did not achieve significant improvement, but I also don't believe my "experiments" were very well designed. Eventually, I think I'll have to do something along this line.

Room treatment is going to be the final (Ha! Ha!) and most challenging episode in my saga. This part will pose the greatest challenges to balance the quest for sound quality with design-quality parameters established by my wife.

The built-ins, along with the geometry of our room, have been constraints that have given me fits since we moved into this house, but I just have to live with them and accommodate them to the extent possible.

One of the reasons that my wife and I have invested so much in the SDA SRSs is that they are wide and shallow vs. narrow and deep and that they sit relatively close to the wall behind them vs. other speakers (e.g., Wilson Audio Maxx 3s and B&W 800Ds). We also both appreciate the SDA effect that you get from no other speakers.

Because of the geometry of our room (relatively narrow vs. its length with built-ins in the middle of the wall space where the speakers need to be), we cannot place speakers that are narrow and deep very far away from the wall. They would not only "dominate" the room, but they would impede movement through the room, which is necessary to walk from the garage entrance to the main part of the house -- the entrance we most often use.

I drew the following floor plan of the room for our attempt at a custom speaker build a few years ago. As a result of our work on this project, we decided to do the best we could with our SDA SRSs. Hence, we are where we are today, and Trey's work has brought us a long, long way! I'm not at all sorry we chose this course.

oldrocker

I have an idea. How about a new house? There are many available down here by Wabash College that I'm sure would have a great room configuration/size for you folks.

Besides, it would be wonderful to have a "fellow" polkie a short distance away... Just throwing it out there....

Moose68Bash

The following post in another thread is a bit of an update on the break-in experience with my latest upgrades from Vr3 Mods. This was a reply to a question from rednedtugent about my favorite CDs from my serial trek through "Yo-Yo Ma: 30 years Outside the Box." I have now listened to 46 of the 90 CDs.

In short, the mod'd speakers, with Trey's Monastery/Abbot level crossovers are awesome at about 200 hours:

"rednedtugent,

As I noted in another thread, my wife gave me "Yo-Yo Ma: 30 Years Outside the Box" for my recent birthday.

This wonderful present consisting of 90 CDs happened to arrive during the period in which I was accumulating the 250 hours of break-in time necessary for the new crossovers Trey built for my SRS 1.2s to "TL" them.

I have been listening to them now for over 100 hours and am now listening to CD 46.

The early CDs sounded "nice," but not what I was hoping for. As time accumulated on the crossovers, the sound began to open up remarkably.

Even the Chopin Piano Trio, to which I am now listening and that was recorded in 1994, has a full rich, extraordinarily engaging sound. I had not listened to this CD before the most recent mods, but I can say that I cannot discern from the sound that this is a "vintage," remastered (in 2009) recording.

The individual instruments are clear. Their timbres are realistic. The transients of the piano runs are distinct and fast. Overall, the sound quality is superb -- the best I have heard.

Perhaps, the most succinct statement I can make is that the rendition of these CDs is now consummately engaging. For example: When I put this Chopin CD in, I was on my way to the garage to change the oil and coolant in my tractor. However, once I started listening, I could not get up and leave. The music gripped me and held me.

I love Chopin, by and large. With respect to the music in this remarkable collection that is most worth listening to, I would advise: Look for composers or pieces that you personally like or are interested in experiencing, and take a listen. The performers are uniformly excellent (no surprise there) and with a good system the recording are very good to superb.

So far, my favorites have been:

CDs 8 & 9: Bach | The Six Unaccompanied Cello Suites
CD 14: Japanese Melodies
CD 24: Dvorak | Piano Trios
CD 30: Anything Goes: Stephane Grappelli and Yo-Yo Ma Play (Mostly) Cole Porter
CD 36: Hush [Bobby McFerrin and Yo-Yo Ma]
CDs 38 & 39: Brahms | String Sextets | Theme and Variations for Piano
CD 42: Faure | Piano Quartets
CD 45: Beethoven and Schumann | Piano Quartets
CD 46: Chopin | Piano Trio | Polonaise brillante | Cello Sonata

You will note the trend is to appreciate the later CDs (they are more or less in chronological order of the original recordings) more than the earlier ones.

I suspect that this has something to do with the breaking in of the crossovers as well as with the quality of the recordings, and even, perhaps, with the characteristics of Yo-Yo Ma's performance. With respect to the latter, I would say that over the years his performances strike me as more "relaxed" and emotive, while still retaining the technical excellence of his craft.

It is pretentious of me even to deign to judge his playing, but I would say that he has evolved over the years covered in the first 46 CDs from superb technical mastery of his instrument to equally superb creativity in his musicality.

One last comment: At about 165 hours of break-in time, the speakers and crossovers took a quantum leap in sound quality. I was listening to "Bang Bang," a track on the recent 2 Cellos's CD "In2ition," when I was suddenly (and I mean "suddenly") shocked by how the sound became open, incredibly real, and present. It was truly an "ah ha" moment in my listening experience."

Trey tells me that 250 hours is the point at which these crossovers are likely to hit their full capability. At this point, however, it is hard for me to imagine how they will improve further.