1979 Klipsch La Scala's for my 2 channel set-up!

gfong

Retiring the Polk Audio RTi A9's from 2 channel duty and moving on with the new to me La Scala's. I owned a pair back in 1984 and instantly fell in love with the horn sound for music.

Should be set up and functional by the end of tomorrow as I have some shuffling to do to make room for the Klipsch. Also have to re-setup my RTi A9's for full time movies and TV.

Now to find a vintage amp... the fun never stops eh!

Conradicles

Very nice!

mhardy6647

Even more than the other Klipsch "heritage" loudspeakers, LaScalas are something of an acquired taste (just, of course, my hardly-humble opinion). I moved on from the Klipsch sound quite a while ago, when I got a my first pair of "real" Altecs (Valancias,in my case). Just no comparison, relative to my tastes and expectations in the reproduction of music.

There's a pretty substantial cottage industry of aftermarket Klipsch "improvers", of which Bob Crites is probably, nowadays, the best-established.

You need to find an amplifier that has superb performance at 100 milliwatts (or even less) output for best results for high-sensitivity loudspeakers like the heritage Klipsches. Single-ended 2A3 isn't a bad choice; I like the JE (Joseph Esmila) Labs "Simple 2A3/45" amp design... which is indeed simple, and can be done as cheaply or expensively as one wishes, depending on choice of output iron, passive components, and vacuum tubes employed. This is what I use with my Altec Duplexes (FWIW). I used a pair of Bottlehead Paramours (SE 2A3 monoblocks) with my Klipsch Cornwalls, to good effect.

DSC_0132 by mhardy6647, on Flickr

JE Simple 2A3/45 amp info: http://jelabsarch.blogspot.com/2012/06/je-labs-simple-452a3.html


(Again, FWIW) the best I ever heard my own pair of Cornies sound was when powered by a Marantz 8B (push-pull EL34 at about 35 wpc) amplifier I had rehabbed for someone. The 8B is just a wonderful piece of hardware; one of my favorite "store-bought" amplifiers.


Have fun.

gfong

Thanks for the detailed info on the tubes much appreciated
Fwiw...Guess I have the acquired La Scala taste.

I have not heard Altecs...I will put that on my list of speakers to audition . Always nice knowing there is no end or ceiling to speaker glory.

schwarcw

I've never heard many of the vintage Klipsch's. I know that they have a big following. The nice thing about horn speakers is that don't need my power, so the little tube amps rive them very nicely.

Congrats on your new speakers!

gfong

Well I did end up getting a new solid state 2 ch amp. Passed on the vintage stuff.

I listened to a couple of tube amps from Jolida (Glass FX10 and JD 102CRC) and compared them to the NAD C356BEE as well as a NAIM Audio amp.

To be honest I did like the airy wide sound stage of the tubes but I preferred the little bit more oomph and the space between the music that the NAD let out. Very neutral no colouring to the sound and very relaxed and pleasant.

They showed me the JD 302CRC tube amp and said it would be more on par with the NAD amp but the price was double the NAD.

Brought the NAD home, set it up and I am very pleased with my selection; maybe down the road I will dive into the tube amps.

NAD (New Acoustic Dimension) is a Canadian company so buying Canadian always is my 1st choice if possible and it worked out in this case.

Thanks for the info and happy listening to all!

tonyb

Since Canadian companies are your cup of tea, if you need a budget tubed pre, look up Maple tree.

gfong

tonyb wrote: »

Since Canadian companies are your cup of tea, if you need a budget tubed pre, look up Maple tree.

Thanks I will have a look at them.

I'm Canadian and try to support anything made in Canada or at least home based in Canada. I think most Americans can relate to that as they have the 'Buy American,' campaign.

mhardy6647

Well, yeah... but don't throw push-pull vacuum tube amps under the bus too fast.

First, some nomenclature: SET = single-ended (i.e., Class A bias) triode.

The "best" triodes for SET are considered by many to be the classic power triodes with directly-heated cathodes -- so-called DHT tubes. The 2A3 (developed in the 1930s and still made, and popular, today) is a good example.

The big plus of single-ended/Class A operation (whether in the vacuum tube or semiconductor domain) is the elimination of crossover ('switching') distortion. Another plus can be (might be) that extremely simple circuits can be used (no need, e.g., for a phase splitter). Some of us believe that, in hifi, less is more.

The big negatives of SE (SET) are 1) it's hard to get high power (not needed, of course, for the LaScalas) without either a) using extremely high (terrifying) plate voltages and big transmitting triodes or b) paralleling output tubes. 2) No cancellation of (EDIT: d'oh) even-order harmonic distortion products (this is thought by some to be part of the charm of SE amplifiers; FWIW I don't much subscribe to that point of view). 3) The unbalanced nature of the output results in a need to deal with the DC plate voltage between the output tube(s) and the speakers. The most typical (and rather brute-force) option is to use a very large air-gapped output transformer (OPT). The sheer mass and the air gap are needed to prevent saturating the OPT's core with DC. The OPT thus is acting as an electromagnet when the amp is in use.

The big plus of an SE triode amp, done right -- amazingly real sound. Not realistic; real. Like real people singing and/or playing real instruments. The phrase "lifting a veil" is often used -- and a direct A/B comparison of a good push-pull amp and a good SE amp will probably demonstrate that instantly (at least, if your ears and tastes resemble mine).

Many of the other 'features' ascribed to SET amps can be red herrings. E.g., high output impedance and limited bandwidth due to no added negative feedback -- that's a designer's choice; it's not by necessity. An amp with high output impedance (low damping factor) will "feel" its loudspeaker load more than a high DF amp. Thus, the choice of loudspeaker with (most) SET amps is quite critical.

It's also quite possible (and indeed, at one time was fairly common in cheap/entry level amplifiers) to make a single-ended pentode vacuum tube amplifier. The EICO AF-4 (single-ended EL84) is a good example. A single ended EL84 amp wired for pentode operation is good for about 4 watts; operate the same output tube wired as a triode and the best you'll get out of it at reasonable levels of distortion is about 1.5 to 2 watts.

mhardy6647

paramours 112413 by mhardy6647, on Flickr

Needless to say, I don't disagree -- but there's no magic to SET amp design; the sonic properties of an SE amp arise directly from the circuit topology, and what some folks love about 'em, others don't care for at all.

Speaking of simplicity...

There are a few tubes that can actually be driven to their full output by a line-level input. Such a topology can eliminate the need for a "voltage amplifier" (driver) stage ahead of the power tube.

Generally such tubes were intended for really low-end, low power applications (i.e., cheap phonographs using a crystal or ceramic cartridge) -- one example is the 60FX5 -- but it is possible to make a true spud amp (i.e., a one-tuber) using just an EL84. In practice, most output tubes will still work/sound better with a driver stage in front of 'em than without.

Speakers?

Get a pair of Altec Duplexes (or the modern version made by GPA) and you may be set for SET for life; that's my recipe.

(image above is a pair of Bottlehead Paramours; my first single-ended 2A3 power amps)

gfong

Few pics of the new to me speaks!

I like it a lot!
http://youtu.be/28GLa9T2CtI

B Run

I've always wanted a pair of those, just don't have the space. Enjoy!

Conradicles

Super sweet speakers! On my list of "Tubes and Horns" to try one day.
They look great.

gfong

Replaced the 30 year old caps on the La Scala's and cleaned up the board that they sit on. Not bad for $100.00 upgrade. Speakers sound crisp and clear and should last another 20 years with those new caps!

(Did this about 2 months ago, just been busy with other stuff of late.)

voltz

Looking good Greg! Nice job!

have you ever thought about building a tube amp from Bottlehead for your speakers?

http://bottlehead.com/product/stereomour-ii-stereo-single-ended-integrated-2a3-amp/

They also have these 300b monoblocks.

mantis

Wonderful Speakers man.

cnh

Interesting discussion by Mark above, as usual. Can't disagree. I do not run an SET and have no problem with its sound. I need the extra power.

As for Klipsch horns, I guess it's no secret that TUBES rule there because of those, often, nasty horns, or not so nasty depending on your ears.

Not surprised that a NAD might work with those as that sound is warm with a bit of weight on the low end and less emphasis up high where horns can hurt your ears. Probably a good SS choice for now.

Enjoy those monsters!

gfong

voltz wrote: »

Looking good Greg! Nice job!

have you ever thought about building a tube amp from Bottlehead for your speakers?

http://bottlehead.com/product/stereomour-ii-stereo-single-ended-integrated-2a3-amp/

They also have these 300b monoblocks.

Looks interesting, thanks for passing that along. will have to investigate and could be a Winter project!

voltz

Hey Greg!

There is the fun of Doing it yourself, look at all the things Rich & Aaron & Doc and all the others have made. And your speakers don't need much of a push to sound off

[Deleted User]

Hello,
Good job on the rebuild. Those original capacitors look like motor run capacitors, usually oil filled.
Do you know what the two devices on the angled metal bracket are? They almost look like older style diodes, but only connected to one wire.
Cheers, Ken

[Deleted User]

It appears they are zener diodes that are paralleled with the tweeter. Protection, I guess.
If it were me, I'd try removing them to see how it sounds.

gfong

DSkip wrote: »

Seriously though. Scrap the vintage idea and find you a good set amp. They are magical, and having a speaker that will work with them pretty much demands you use them.

I know this is an old post of mine but just wanted to say I have a new to me Simply Italy amp on the way. Can't wait to hear it with my speakers. Thanks again for the advice.

hippierecords

gfong wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

Seriously though. Scrap the vintage idea and find you a good set amp. They are magical, and having a speaker that will work with them pretty much demands you use them.

I know this is an old post of mine but just wanted to say I have a new to me Simply Italy amp on the way. Can't wait to hear it with my speakers. Thanks again for the advice.

So how does the amp sound compared to your solid state amp. I'm in the same boat as you were with your La Scalas. Im on the fence in regards to tubes vs solid state with my La Scalas.

gfong

hippierecords wrote: »

gfong wrote: »

DSkip wrote: »

Seriously though. Scrap the vintage idea and find you a good set amp. They are magical, and having a speaker that will work with them pretty much demands you use them.

I know this is an old post of mine but just wanted to say I have a new to me Simply Italy amp on the way. Can't wait to hear it with my speakers. Thanks again for the advice.

So how does the amp sound compared to your solid state amp. I'm in the same boat as you were with your La Scalas. Im on the fence in regards to tubes vs solid state with my La Scalas.

The tube amp sounds really good but of course has limitations because of it only being 12 watts.
The sound stage is wider, clarity and detail are more present and the it generally sounds more open.

What it lacks is the oomph and weight of the solid state amps. Whether using a new NAD 356 BEE or a older 70's harman kardon Twin Powered 720 the tube amp could not compete in shear volume or bass from a drum or general driving force of a electric guitar solo. the tube amp lacks authority.

This finding is not rocket science by any means but it does make it difficult to pick one side or the other.

I still do not know which one I prefer, the Simply Italy tube amp is really growing on me as it is very detailed and open.

Most of the time I would choose the Simply Italy but there are times when I need the strength and authority to make those La Scala's move my rye and coke on the table opposed to just making ripples in it!

My tube amp is based on SET style which is a low wattage amp.

I can also add that when I auditioned my NAD it was down to it and the Jolida- JD102CRC tube amp. The Jolida had most of the characteristics that I described about tube amps but I choose the NAD as it seemed to have a blend of tube sound and SS sound/power.

With the NAD I thought I had the best of both worlds until I found a vintage harman kardon 730. I think it goes very well with my La Scala's.
The Klipsch community recommend that and a few others to me. Got lucky and found a nice one on the used market.

Always looking for more I found a used Unison Research Simply Italy for a good price. It came to me with cheap power tubes so I purchased the stock pre/power Tung Sol tubes so that I could get the factory sound. As stated I really like how it works but think it needs more power. I mentioned to a few other friends that I think I thought it could do more but once I worked with it in the parameters of what it is I am very happy with the performance and sound.

So there you have it, a long story on a raining Tuesday about Greg's adventure trying to find the perfect amp for his Klipsch La Scala speakers. haha Hope I didn't bore...

What are you using now and what are your thoughts on the sound of your Klipsch? What sound are you going after and what type of music do you listen to lost? curious.

gfong

I revised a few words once I thought about what I wrote. Could not edit so added here.

The tube amp sounds fantastic, the best the La Scala's have sounded but has limitations because of it only being 12 watts.
The sound stage is wider, clarity and detail are more present, vocals are amazing with such reality and the it sounds more open and bigger.

The Simply Italy tube amp is really growing on me as it is very detailed and open.

hippierecords

I have my La Scalas being driven by my Pioneer SX-850. I tried them with a Marantz 2252B as well as a Pioneer SA-8500 II. The SX-850 sounded the best. The others sounded very clear but sterile. A sound I am not after. I want the clarity and authority of the SA-8500 II with the warmth of the tubes. (I'm told the tubes are warm) Truthfully I've never heard a pair of tubes in my life. So I did a bunch of research and decided to stay solid state until I'm convinced otherwise.

I purchased a Pioneer SX-1010. Hooked it up and man o man talk about perfect for my needs. Clear- Warm- Power Unfortunately it has issues, and is headed for a 2 week stint at the local shop for a complete overhaul.

I listen to mainly classic rock,soft rock, soul, funk, some newer alternative.

99% Vinyl is played through my system. On the rarest of rare occasions I throw a disc on or run online music through it. I'm one of those enthusiast that think music sounds better on vinyl.

gfong

You may wanna stay with what you have been using especially with the type of music you prefer. Could you borrow or demo a used tube amp?

With tubes I found whatever the solid state amps did good the tubes did better with everything except the authority on certain types of music. It is really night and day with tubes vs SS.
Good luck with your quest as well as your SX-1010.

BillJGW

If you want to go all out, try an Atma-Sphere S30 amp. Ultra clear, fast, detail out the wazoo. Back a few years, I had an all Atma-Sphere system with the bigboy MA-2 monoblocks. They were glorious but put out so much heat I hardly used them in the summer!

tonyb

Around 50 watts of tube power should give you the oomph your looking for. Just my .02, but you can't beat that tube sound with a stick over SS.