open question to Tony B and F-1

leftwinger57

I'm a bit taken back about both of your guys dislike for vintage high powered McIntosh amplifiers. I always coveted a 2105, or even dare I say a Mac 2300. I only thing I don't like of their design back in the day were those barrier strip speaker connecting points. I know I live in the past and from what I remember the most notable professional's den stereo set up was a Mac 2105, a C-28 pre/amp, MX-117 tuner, w/ a Dual 1229 tt with a Shure MK5 cart?. For speakers the obligatory AR-3As.

ZLTFUL

I don't think it is a dislike for the product itself but more for the cost of membership so to speak.

I think the anniversary edition MC-275 is one sexy piece of kit but I know I can get as much power, as good, if not better sound and at a fraction of the cost.

I dig the aesthetics of the Mac pieces. Would probably have a couple MC-601s to add to the rotation if I ever won the lottery.
But for the price of admission, there is better to be had.

F1nut

The vintage stuff sounds veiled and slow to my ears.

leftwinger57

Veiled I could grasp, slow I have no idea what that means. Again I'm talking vintage Macs and not comparing them w/ Pass Labs, Conrad-Johnson, Acoustic Research,Mark Levinson,Cary Audio, or Krell to name some of the modern heavy hitters that many like on this site.

tonyb

Yep...Mac gear has always been somewhat overpriced. Their newer tube stuff is pretty good and of course the 275 goes without saying. Just too many other makers of tube gear that are better and cheaper.

Now vintage Mac SS amps....forgetaboutit. Never heard one that made me say " I want that".

F1nut

The pace (speed) is slow.

tonyb

tonyb wrote: »

Yep...Mac gear has always been somewhat overpriced. Their newer tube stuff is pretty good and of course the 275 goes without saying. Just too many other makers of tube gear that are better and cheaper.

Now vintage Mac SS amps....forgetaboutit. Never heard one that made me say " I want that".

You may live in the past LW, and that may be the only reason you want one, for nostalgia's sake. I guarantee you though, if those so called professionals had their choice today, it wouldn't be vintage Mac stuff. Get out more and listen to some stuff and compare notes. Just too many darn fine sounding tube pieces out there to even think about vintage Mac.

leftwinger57

Very interesting. As you know it's not that I'm anti tube I just don't know enough about them. Would a good starter tube amp be a Dynaco ST-70 or is that also to old unless it was modded and brought into the 21st century ,just one example . Thanks for not piling on ,I was just curious.

tonyb

Wouldn't be my choice LW. If you want to get familiar with some tubes, I'd suggest a tubed pre first. Get acclimated to the sound of a few different tubes and see how you like what it does to blow your skirt up or not.

The Dared is a good starter pre and used can be anywhere from 3-4 hundies. Also some Jolida pre's are reasonable. Yaqin also....seen some for 200 bucks.

pumpkinman

I had a newly restored Dynaco ST-70 here about 4 years ago. Did I like it ?? In a word "no" I didn't. I have a McIntosh MC-7270 Produced from 1985 to 1991 and I love it.

Diff. strokes for diff. folks I guess

P-man

nooshinjohn

LW... do you live in SoCal? I would be happy to show you what good tubes can do.

mhardy6647

A restored to original condition Dynaco ST-70 is, indeed, nothin' to write home about (at least relative to my taste and expectations); thus did a pretty significant cottage grow up -- still extant -- for modifications to pretty much every aspect of it save for its very fine output iron.

I won't share my opinions on the early ss, autoformer-coupled Mac amplifiers ... but I've shared it many times before.

leftwinger57

Not even close, about 3,287 miles in the opposite direction in Central Jersey. I never heard SDAs on tubes and would love to hear the difference.I think Mikey is the only forumite remotely close to me up int.287. I do have a pix of big SDA from the guy I bought my Onkyo P3150v pre that's now retired and truth be told because his speakers were in a cement block basement my 2Bs in my living room w/ poofy furniture sounded better than his monoliths which I still don't know what model they were.I'm guessing 1.2TL, the other spkrs were NHT among other gear he had all over.


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pumpkinman

LW I live right off of rt. 80 in Pa. and have 3.1 TL's. I have 3 tubed pre's and a tubed integrated. You're welcome anytime.

erniejade

I had a re capped 2105 for a bit. While I thought it was a solid amp, for under 1k it was bested by a sunfire. I say 1k because in good shape with the wood case thats around what they go for (700-1k ). While the 2105 I thought sounded better then my old adcom 555, the sunfire 300 sounded way better in that price range.

I am not a mac hater and I currently run a McIntosh mc402. The 2105 is a late 60's design. A lot of advancement has been made with ss amps since then. I am also going to agree with slow on the bass end as well. The top end improved for me after a recap but the sunfire still sounded better to me.

tonyb

Not to mention you can get a used Sunfire for about half of what some want for a used Mac ss amp.

Does that answer your question LW ?

Msabot1

Back in the day how many quality audio manufacturers were in business..a handful maybe...and Mac was the standard....These days..the audio market is Infinate....dozens to choose from but the old Mac gear still holds value....a testament to the engineering savvy the line has...I love my MC 240 by the way...just a fine piece....

mhardy6647

An MC 240 is in a different class altogether than the autoformer-coupled, solid state Macs.

tonyb

mhardy6647 wrote: »

An MC 240 is in a different class altogether than the autoformer-coupled, solid state Macs.

Yep, sure is....but we are talking vintage Mac SS amps, not tubes. Every manufacturer has a few turkeys in their lineup, doesn't matter how high end they are. Mac's early SS attempts were theirs....even some tube stuff too as others also pointed out, kinda slow and muddy. We are not....repeat, NOT dumping on Mac as a brand, just certain products in their line-up. Just because a component carries a certain name brand doesn't automatically give it the "good sound seal of approval".

Msabot1

mhardy6647 wrote: »

An MC 240 is in a different class altogether than the autoformer-coupled, solid state Macs.

You got that right man....the vintage SS Mac gear has a lot of shortcomings.....I guess their name is what they were betting would be a selling point...but when you say Mac..tube gear is what that company is famous for...never heard an older SS Mac that I liked...

mhardy6647

I thoroughly agree about the first generation soiled state Macs. My Cornwalls came with an MC-2100; you wanna talk about a bad combination... ewwww.

My personal Mac fave amplifier (FWIW) is the MC-225; wish I could afford one...

muncybob

pumpkinman, if you are ever going west on I-80 let me know what it would take to have you bring a tubed pre and stop by....or any pre for that matter!

devani

woo, does that call for NJ meet? I am in for that once the snow stops...

leftwinger57

Like I said,I giving an open invitation anyone to come over and evaluate my system. I'm actually really interested in these opinions. Bring any device you want SPL,dB,MRI ,CT-Scan anything. I can take it, and then you can use my machine to post your conclusions of my system. Tony, I fully understand what your talking about older Mac ss gear. Time to grow out of the '70s or live in the 21st century I guess. Those giant blue meters do have a hypnotic effect on me. Central Jersey, I'm close to every major road in the state.

erniejade

The newer mac ss are fantastic. Heck even Hoffman uses a mc402 in his rig but you can get the same quality cheaper. They are darn expensive. I am still a sucker for a vu. From what I have read the newer tube pre's are also good but again $$. I contemplated a 2300 preamp for a long time until I called audio classics and asked them for advice since they deal with AR and mcintosh. I told them what I was running and if it was worth the 3k difference. They flat out said very slight and not worth a 3k difference between the sp16 and the 2300. Although the dang vu's on the preamp I do like a lot.

leftwinger57

back to my bud Pumpkinman I thought you had Vandersteen 3a sigs as your mains. I have heard both them and the 2ci/ce and for the money they can't be beat. Not as placement critical as SDAs you only need the anchor stands to raise up the tweeters to your ear levels.

leftwinger57

Sorry for keep going w/ this tube pre -thread. Believe me I looked. E-Bay, OakTree, Audiagon and others. Most were totally out of wallet range but I did find a more modern Dynaco tube pre for $600 that is interesting and one Pas- 3 tube that I think you guys do not like. Cary, Jolida, Audio Reasearch whether used or very used was way to much.For now it's the NAD 1020a....

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/tube-dynaco-pas-4-mid-1990s-tube-preamplifier-with-mm-phono-stage-exceptionally-clean-2015-02-01-preamplifiers-98001-algona-wa

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/tube-dynaco-pas-tube-stereo-preamp-dyna-2015-01-31-preamplifiers-49512-kentwood-mi

ZLTFUL

There is nothing wrong with the Dynaco Pas-4. It is a nice intro into the world of a tube pre for a low price of admission.

There is also this:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/tube-anthem-sonic-frontiers-pre1l-2015-02-05-preamplifiers-27013-cleveland-nc

Pick up an inexpensive phono pre (which would still be better than the built in on the NAD) and you're set.

Having owned the NAD 1020, it is a nice little entry level piece but the 2 pieces above will make a nice solid improvement.

Heck, if the recap is fairly recent, this is a nice option too...
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/tube-conrad-johnson-pv2ar-conrad-johnson-2015-02-08-preamplifiers-28730-fairview-nc

Although we are starting to climb the price tree now...

mhardy6647

The PAS-3 is OK -- but just OK -- and the prices tend to be exorbitant for what you get. It is a nice looking piece of hardware, though -- timeless cosmetics. There is a cottage industry of upgrades for the Dynaco preamps... but the costs will mount up fairly quickly.

Good preamps are hard to find IME; most of the ones I've experienced do more harm than good, and the ones I've liked are way (way) beyond my price range.

This is what I am using to add a little more oompf to the signal driving the voltage amplifier on my "simple 2A3" amp.
http://www.pmillett.com/hybrid_head.htm
(the original morph, that is -- I've built a couple of these over the years)

6SN7 drivers by mhardy6647, on Flickr
Preamp/hp amp is to the right of the power amp in the rather messy photo above.

I'd never qualify it as great, but it does provide some beneficial drive & it sounds good (and I had it, gathering dust, anyway).

I've been sitting on a $99 Bottlehead Quickie kit for a year :- (
Someone brought one over here in the fall of 2013 and it sounded pretty darned good, actually. For a hunnert smackers, you really cannot go wrong, IMO (assembly required, of course).

Dollar for dollar, I think this is one of the most interesting preamp opportunities extant (FWIW): http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Transcendent_Sound_Grounded_Grid_Preamp.html

leftwinger57

Doc, I do understand where your coming from I think. What I never will understand is getting a phono pre on top of the pre that does everything else. I did see that the pre you are showing comes both as a kit or factory built. ZLTFUL, that was the exact pre I did look at on Audioagon and looked great and modern. When my appropriate boat comes in I'll let you guys know then we'll discuss which pre would suit well w/ my Adcom. Again Mr. Z I'm glad you did like the NAD 1020a which is far and away better than the 2 Onkyo pres I've had in the past and that's my only experience w/ pre amplifiers. Sorry to drag out of this thread but it's not only for me. I guess anyone getting their feet wet in a 2- chl set-up could benefit in this thread w/ mixing ss and tubes and the tube pre being the lesser of the 2 would be my natural choice to hit on it 1st.... Lew.....

sucks2beme

There's a lot of vintage stuff out there. The Mac stuff is well supported.
It's a lot easier to get bits and pieces for Mac than some other 70's stuff.
Mac power amps perform pretty well, especially with some mods.
Forget any older Mac preamp- not worth the effort. The 275 is one
great tube amp. Everyone should listen to one at least once.
Go over to Audio Karma and do some homework. Some older amps are
pretty darn good. The Dynaco stuff never did it for me. Some modern rebuilds do
address what I don't like about Dynaco stuff. There's a lot of other
stuff out there that sounds good for less money. It's a shame you really can't get the
Dodd preamp kits anymore.
So much of the decent 70's stuff has been priced right out of the hands of most people. I've seen some Sansui and Pioneer stuff go for $$$$.
At those prices for unrestored units, just as well go modern.