Phono pre needed for vintage amp?

StevieB
StevieB Posts: 256
in 2 Channel Audio
I'm attempting to get back into some vinyl and wondered if a separate phono pre would usually be a step up over a mid 80's Denon amp. If so are there any good to be had for around 3-4 hundred? The biggest obstacle I can see so far is the old Dual turntable has an MC cartridge. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
McCormack DNA-1 Amp, Parasound Halo P5 Pre Amp, Denon DVD 2900 CD player, Adcom GDA 700 DAC, VPI Traveler TT with Denon 103R cartridge, Lounge Audio MKiii phono pre and Copla SUT, Polk SDA SRS 3.1 TL speakers, Tributaries series 8 IC's and speaker cable.
· Share on FacebookShare on Twitter

Comments

  • voltz
    voltz Posts: 5,384
    edited January 2015
    well I don't know how your built in phono amp sounds , but I would think a new MM/MC phono preamp would very likely sound better. Here is a Vincent I came so close to buying several times as I have other Vincent gear.

    http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VIPHO8

    I like that it has a external power supply housed in a separate chassis.
    Post edited by voltz on
    2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge

    HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,802
    You don't need a new phono preamp, but chances are you can find an affordable standalone (i.e., add-on) phono preamp that will better your Denon's.

    Interesting recent thread here on essentially this topic.
    http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/165445/budget-phono-pre

    What sort of MC cartridge are you using in your Dual? Some have high enough output to be happy with the gain of a typical MM "phonostage", although, of course, a low output MC (LOMC) would require either more gain from the phonostage... or a "head amp" (pre-preamp) or the use of a stereo pair of step up transformers (SUTs) to feed a phonostage designed for typical MM output voltages (typically several millvolts).
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • StevieB
    StevieB Posts: 256
    voltz wrote: »
    well I don't know how your built in phono amp sounds , but I would think a new MM/MC phono preamp would very likely sound better. Here is a Vincent I came so close to buying several times as I have other Vincent gear.

    http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VIPHO8

    I like that it has a external power supply housed in a separate chassis.

    Yeah, probably have to just jump in and try something out. That looks like a nice unit for the money.
    McCormack DNA-1 Amp, Parasound Halo P5 Pre Amp, Denon DVD 2900 CD player, Adcom GDA 700 DAC, VPI Traveler TT with Denon 103R cartridge, Lounge Audio MKiii phono pre and Copla SUT, Polk SDA SRS 3.1 TL speakers, Tributaries series 8 IC's and speaker cable.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • StevieB
    StevieB Posts: 256
    edited January 2015
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    You don't need a new phono preamp, but chances are you can find an affordable standalone (i.e., add-on) phono preamp that will better your Denon's.

    Interesting recent thread here on essentially this topic.
    http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/165445/budget-phono-pre

    What sort of MC cartridge are you using in your Dual? Some have high enough output to be happy with the gain of a typical MM "phonostage", although, of course, a low output MC (LOMC) would require either more gain from the phonostage... or a "head amp" (pre-preamp) or the use of a stereo pair of step up transformers (SUTs) to feed a phonostage designed for typical MM output voltages (typically several millvolts).

    It's an old ortofon X1. I believe that's the problem I'm facing and most budget phono pre's probably don't have the ability to adjust the gain.
    McCormack DNA-1 Amp, Parasound Halo P5 Pre Amp, Denon DVD 2900 CD player, Adcom GDA 700 DAC, VPI Traveler TT with Denon 103R cartridge, Lounge Audio MKiii phono pre and Copla SUT, Polk SDA SRS 3.1 TL speakers, Tributaries series 8 IC's and speaker cable.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,802
    The Bugle 2 can be configured for 40, 50, or 60 dB of gain.
    http://hagerman-audio-labs.myshopify.com/products/bugle2

    I like the way Jim Hagerman puts it; his no-nonsense style is encapsulated in his remarks :- )
    Gain can be set for 40dB (moving magnet, >2mV), 50dB (Denon, 1.5mV), or 60dB (moving coil, <1mV). If you are not sure which is right for you, the answer is 40. For DIYers who would like to modify gain or equalization, check out this handy calculator.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • StevieB
    StevieB Posts: 256
    edited January 2015
    Thank you sir. I believe that's an excellent suggestion. As long as I don't have to put it together! Probably have better luck attempting to solve a calculus problem. :)
    McCormack DNA-1 Amp, Parasound Halo P5 Pre Amp, Denon DVD 2900 CD player, Adcom GDA 700 DAC, VPI Traveler TT with Denon 103R cartridge, Lounge Audio MKiii phono pre and Copla SUT, Polk SDA SRS 3.1 TL speakers, Tributaries series 8 IC's and speaker cable.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • voltz
    voltz Posts: 5,384
    I forgot the Bugle 2 could be change like that. If you dont mind a DIY project and a little soldering that would be a great choice,and save some $$$ also everything Doc Hardy said! buy used if you can & check the other threads.
    2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge

    HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,802
    Buy one and have it shipped to me --- I'd be happy to build it (and, yes, I'll even send it "back" to you when it's done!)

    It (the Bugle 2) is a really dandy sounding preamp, amazingly good sounding for the $ -- I wonder if Mrbiron can even remember what his sounds like :-P
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • mrbiron
    mrbiron Posts: 5,711
    What's a Buggle-to?...who is James Hagerty? Where am I????

    I had a dream last night...let's call it a nightmare. Mr Hardy....my bugle....and an empty boxed wine. There was a lot of crying and then I woke up. It was horrible.
    Where’s the KABOOM?!?! There’s supposed to be an Earth shattering KABOOM!!!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Moose68Bash
    Moose68Bash Posts: 3,843
    edited January 2015
    You should look at a vintage Perreaux preamp -- e.g., SA33. They have very good phono stages for MC/MM cartridges. Phono load is switchable -- 47 ohms, 47 kohms, 100 ohms.

    Soundfreak1, I believe, uses an SA33 in his rig. He might comment on its performance.

    These preamps come up on eBay from time to time.

    Here's an SA3 on Audiogon:

    http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-perreaux-sa-3-dual-mono-2015-01-15-preamplifiers-60601-chicago-il
    Family Room, Innuos Statement streamer (Roon Core) with Morrow Audio USB cable to McIntosh MC 2700 pre with DC2 Digital Audio Module; AQ Sky XLRs to CAT 600.2 dualmono amp, Morrow Elite Speaker Cables to NOLA Baby Grand Reference Gold 3 speakers. Power source for all components: Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One with dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel.

    Exercise Room, Innuos Streamer via Cat 6 cable connection to PS Audio PerfectWave MkII DAC w/Bridge II, AQ King Cobra RCAs to Perreaux PMF3150 amp (fully restored and upgraded by Jeffrey Jackson, Precision Audio Labs), Supra Rondo 4x2.5 Speaker Cables to SDA 1Cs (Vr3 Mods Xovers and other mods.), Dreadnaught with Supra Rondo 4x2.5 interconnect cables by Vr3 Mods. Power for each component from dedicated 20 amp circuit to main panel, except Innuos Statement powered from Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One.

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • StevieB
    StevieB Posts: 256
    Moose68Bash wrote: »
    You should look at a vintage Perreaux preamp -- e.g., SA33. They have very good phono stages for MC/MM cartridges. Phono load is switchable -- 47 ohms, 47 kohms, 100 ohms.

    Soundfreak1, I believe, uses an SA33 in his rig. He might comment on its performance.

    These preamps come up on eBay from time to time.

    Here's an SA3 on Audiogon:

    http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-perreaux-sa-3-dual-mono-2015-01-15-preamplifiers-60601-chicago-il

    Thanks for the link, that looks like a sweet preamp. I love vintage equipment but unfortunately my budget is limited at the moment. I hope to venture down the rabbit hole sometime in the near future, but for now, the Bugle 2 is on the way. :D (They now sell it assembled)
    McCormack DNA-1 Amp, Parasound Halo P5 Pre Amp, Denon DVD 2900 CD player, Adcom GDA 700 DAC, VPI Traveler TT with Denon 103R cartridge, Lounge Audio MKiii phono pre and Copla SUT, Polk SDA SRS 3.1 TL speakers, Tributaries series 8 IC's and speaker cable.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • mrbiron
    mrbiron Posts: 5,711
    Assembled!!!....Half the fun is building the little giant. :P
    Good luck.
    Where’s the KABOOM?!?! There’s supposed to be an Earth shattering KABOOM!!!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • voltz
    voltz Posts: 5,384
    I've Tried several Phono Preamps, from 2 different pro-jects & a Parasound zphono nice just to big for me, and now a Graham Slee and the one I wish I tried was the Bugle 2 now since you too liked it so much!

    I know I would not hesitate to own the Vincent or Cambridge either! several ways to go but the bugle kit really sounds sweet.
    2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge

    HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • StevieB
    StevieB Posts: 256
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    Buy one and have it shipped to me --- I'd be happy to build it (and, yes, I'll even send it "back" to you when it's done!)

    It (the Bugle 2) is a really dandy sounding preamp, amazingly good sounding for the $ -- I wonder if Mrbiron can even remember what his sounds like :-P

    Just wanted to give a big thanks for the info on the Bugle 2. Arrived in the mail today, plugged it in and just sat down with an IPA and some Low Spark of High Heeled Boys, sounds most excellent right out of the box! A definite step up from the denon phono stage.
    McCormack DNA-1 Amp, Parasound Halo P5 Pre Amp, Denon DVD 2900 CD player, Adcom GDA 700 DAC, VPI Traveler TT with Denon 103R cartridge, Lounge Audio MKiii phono pre and Copla SUT, Polk SDA SRS 3.1 TL speakers, Tributaries series 8 IC's and speaker cable.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,802
    de nada.

    Next thing you know, Mrbiron will be knockin' on my door demanding his back!

    If he doesn't succumb to exposure between the car and the doorbell, of course.

    :-P

    I really do need to get that back to you sometime soon, Mrbiron! It's been a true joy to play with and listen to it -- I should just bite the bullet and get myself one...
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter