Bass Management in DVD Player

DLewis

I've been looking at various "universal" DVD-V/DVD-A/SACD players and am a little confused as to whether having one with bass management or not will make a big difference. I've got an Onkyo TX-SR701 receiver and it has various crossover frequencies I can set for bass management. Is this just for digital stuff like DTS and DolbyDigital? If I get something like the Onkyo DV-S800 which doesn't appear to have bass management, will I miss out on some sound when playing DVD-A or SACD discs? Other DVD units I'm considering are the Yamaha DVD-S2300, Denon DVD-2900 and Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai. Last question: do any of these four players (Onkyo being the fourth) suffer from the "chroma" bug?

btw, my speakers are Polk CSi5, RTi6, PSW303 and RC65i for the surrounds.

pjdami

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Here's a 13 month old list of the chroma bug players. Not sure if some of the manufacturer's with the bug have corrected the problem:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/dvd-benchmark-special-report-chroma-bug-4-2001-list.html

Your receiver will work fine while watching movies for the bass management duties. Most folks watch movies with all speakers set to small with a 80 hz crossover to the sub.

Can't really answer your SACD bass management question quite yet. Have to do more research on that myself as well.

FWIW, the Denon's have been recieving glowing reviews from forum members here and other places as well.

pjdami

I was just reading over at Crutchfield about the Denon. I've been eying the 2200 for quite a while. The 2900 is even better.

Yes, you will need a DVD player with bass management to handle the SACD / DVD audio playback. Its important to have the 80 hz crossover with 12dB high-pass and 24dB low-pass filter slopes. This way the mains play relatively strong below 80 hz w/ the 12 db high-pass to blend in smoothly with the sub and the sub goes away quickly with the 24 db low pass filter slope. Subs that play above 100 - 120 hz will cause localization of sound.

Denon is the way to go here in my opinion and trust in other forum members here as well.

Do a search for Denon DVD 2900 here on the forum and you should get tons of info. Great SI video chip too.

Here's some good reading:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-OxT31jwJlTh/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=6&g=54400&I=033DVD2900&o=p&a=0&cc=01&avf=N

therockman

Actually bass management should never be an issue for audiophiles with decent speakers all the way around. Bass mangement is only the redirection of bass frequencies away from the main speakers and into the sub, and this is only an issue if you have small satelite type speakers. YOU SHOULD NEVER EMPLOY ANY BASS MANAGEMENT WHILE ENJOYING A DECENT HOME THEATRE!!! All real home theatre afficianados simply run their systems with all settings set to "large" as to allow all the sound to be reproduced by all the speakers. This is really important when you start listening to SACD in 5.1, where there are some serious bass notes in all speakers. Listen to Aerosmith TOYS IN THE ATTIC, this disc has some serious bass in all 5 speakers, and the sub rocks the house.

pjdami

All real home theatre afficianados simply run their systems with all settings set to "large" as to allow all the sound to be reproduced by all the speakers.

I respectfully disagree with a broad statement like this Rocky. Surely, this is something that is system and listener dependant but there are quite a few of us who prefer to run all speakers on small and let the sub handle the lower frequency duties. The 12 db high pass filter will allow the surrounds to play with a gentle slope below 80 hz and blend well with the sub. I'm talking about HT application here and cannot really comment on the SACD part because I have yet to fiddle around with that. Not knocking your personal preference at all, but there's always two sides of the coin at the beginning of the football game.

Paul

shack

Originally posted by pjdami
I respectfully disagree with a broad statement like this Rocky.

Therockman is certainly making statements that while they may be his opinions, are anything but fact...

Actually bass management should never be an issue for audiophiles with decent speakers all the way around.

YOU SHOULD NEVER EMPLOY ANY BASS MANAGEMENT WHILE ENJOYING A DECENT HOME THEATRE!!!

Spend any time talking with people who are serious about HT (no sub/sat systems here) and bass management is a HUGE issue...and it may be their #1 issue. Go to Home Theater Forum or AVS Forum or any number of other forums where there are many folks with "DECENT" home theater systems who have spent many hours and thousands of dollars putting their systems together and ask them if bass management is important. When Outlaw was coming out with it's 990 pre/pro the #1 concern posed to the beta testers (other than some QC issues) was bass management. Ask Tom at SVS, or Dr. Hsu, Adire Audio or the guys at Outlaw (they make an ICBM BAss Management System that sells very well - I'm pretty sure that it is not marketed to folks with sub/sat HT systems) if bass management is important. Ask the good Dr. Spec on this forum ...Who has obviously made it a point to spend a considerable amount of time learning as much as he can about bass...if bass management is important.

Oh and BTW...I prefer to run my mains set to large, but most here with "decent" HT systems disagree.

therockman

I am very sorry, and I do appoligize if I made broad statements that some people do not agree with. My information is based on many years of research into the subject, and a few years of experience. The home theater site, the dolby site, the thx site and even Polk's own recommendations indicate that with bass management, all speakers should be set to large if they can handle the minimal amount of bass present in the nominal audio band of 40-20,000hz.
The bass in the octave between 60 and 125 hz is really directional. That is, if there is some audio action that is tied to the action on the screen, you want to know where this action is located. A gun shot to the right of the screen, a door thud to the left of the screen, a rock thunking on the ground behind you, you really want the full impact of this sonic action. If you have decent speakers there is no reason to introduce artifical filters into the audio chain. The artifical filters do leave artifacts that destroy certain aspects of sound reproduction (timbre of certain notes), and also destroy the natural directionality of localized sounds.
This is really not just my opinion, but it also seems to be the consensus of "most" home theater buffs. The need for bass management is only an issue with people that use small speakers.

And look, I didn't even mention SACD, which is a different story all together.

PolkThug

"you want to know where this action is located. "

This is a good point.


However, I have found with 6 1/2" mids across the front, midrange music sounds better if I let the sounds 80hz and below go to the sub. So, I use small, x-over at 80hz.

If I had 8's or 10's across the front, I might have a different opinion.

You just have to experiment and decide for yourself.a

Regards,
PolkThug

pjdami

Rocky, no need to apologize bud. You are only trying to help and you are entitled to your opinion and listening observations.

Another reason some of us prefer the small with 80 hz sub crossover is that this helps to free up amplifier power on the receiver since the mains / surrounds will not be receiving any power hungry bass notes. This allows the plate amp on the sub to handle these demanding duties. Some of us also find that this helps to clear up the midrange a bit in the mains / surrounds. Others, on the other hand, find that this makes the mains / surrounds sound a little thin. Personal preference here and worth some experimentation. However, the bass management capabilities is what allows the user to experiment with all of these options and that is why many of us feel it is so important.

Another way to attack this is to select a setting lower than 80 hz for the sub setting if the main's speaker F3 is low enough say at like 35 hz. One can do a frequency sweep on the system using the bass test tones and plot the results. If you start to see a dip at 40 - 50 hz at the lower crossover setting then I would try the higher 80 hz setting.

Paul

pjdami

Rocky,

By the way, you mention THX. The THX standard is to set all speakers on small and use the 80 hz filter point on the AVR to the sub:

http://www.thx.com/mod/techLib/qCard.html

Not trying to rub anything in; just making a point;)

paul

pjdami

Dlewis,

You may want to pick up the new issue of "The Perfect Vision" magazine. They review 17 DVD players in that issue. I'll be looking for it today myself.

http://www.theperfectvision.com/current.html

or you can buy it online for $10. I think I'll look for it at the newstand.

Paul

DLewis

Thanks to all for the info, learning something new all the time. I guess I need to re-phrase my original question as I still do not have an idea what to expect. Given my Onkyo receiver, my center/bookshelf speakers w/6.5" drivers and my sub config, how will DVD-A's and SACD's sound if I use a universal player (such as the Onkyo) with no bass management? Will it be horrible, acceptable or actually sound pretty decent? Will I lose any of the sound elements?

therockman

Well Paul, you do make some very good arguments for your case. But you are wrong about one thing, I really did have to appoligize. My opinion is simply that, my opinion! Your last couple of posts really did make a lot of sense, and obviously bass management is an issue, otherwise we wouldn't even be having this dialog.
Now to get back to the point of this thread, bass management for SACDs. If everything that Paul says about bass management is true about home theater, then it should also be true about music reproduction. I have a very good collection of 5.1 SACDs, and I enjoy them all very much, but the issue is one of personal preference.

gmorris

Just a quick thought here about the Bass Management debacle...

MOST people here at the Polk forum use a system that contains a Receiver and Polk speakers that have woofers of 6-1/2" diameter. Using Bass Man. set to 80 Hz is a HUGE advantage with this typical setup. Most people here are not audiophiles and do not have pricey audiophile systems.

Although, I do agree with the comments that therockman was lambasted for. If your speakers can handle the bass, not using Bass Man. is a better sounding setup.

ken brydson

Originally posted by gmorris
Just a quick thought here about the Bass Management debacle...

MOST people here at the Polk forum use a system that contains a Receiver and Polk speakers that have woofers of 6-1/2" diameter. Using Bass Man. set to 80 Hz is a HUGE advantage with this typical setup. Most people here are not audiophiles and do not have pricey audiophile systems.

Although, I do agree with the comments that therockman was lambasted for. If your speakers can handle the bass, not using Bass Man. is a better sounding setup.

Bass Man ?? Never heard that term

gmorris

Originally posted by ken brydson
Bass Man ?? Never heard that term

Short for "Bass Management"

I just didn't feel like typing the entire word, but now that was a total waste because I've now rambled on......

therockman

One consideration regarding bass management with SACDs, all DSD (direct stream digital) information is output from the player in an analog mode. What this means is that with a 5.1 SACD set up, you will need 3 pairs of rca style analog cords, (six separate channels of analog information). This analog information is then inputed into your reciever at a point in the preamp that by-passes all DSP (digital signal processing), thus there can be no manipulation of bass or any other parameters of the SACD information. Thus, you are correct in being concerned about your machine's bass management capabilities. With my Sony SACD player (model DVP-NS755) it does offer bass management for SACDs in the digital realm, but I do not utilize this feature, being very happy with the full range sound being played in all channels.
You will notice that not all surround sound SACDs are 5.1, some are actually 4.0 or even 5.0. Thus, if you are playing a 5.0 disc with a bass redirection circuit activated in the machine, then you will artifically create a 5.1 effect, which I don't think is natural for the music content. A very excellent disc in this perspective comes to mind, Yo Yo Ma, the disc called OBRIGADO BRAZIL. I really enjoy this disc as it is, a 5.0 surround sound, but when I did experiement with my bass redirection circuits to create a 5.1 effect, I did not like the sound of it. So you will definately want to consider the bass management capability of the player itself.

ken brydson

Originally posted by gmorris
Short for "Bass Management"

I just didn't feel like typing the entire word, but now that was a total waste because I've now rambled on......

I feel stupid. I didn't even make the connection. I was thinking some kind/brand of sub or something. Duh
I went a long time thinking BM was the other thing

gmorris

Originally posted by ken brydson
I feel stupid. I didn't even make the connection. I was thinking some kind/brand of sub or something. Duh
I went a long time thinking BM was the other thing

Yes, I see your confusion. You thought I meant there is a little man inside the speakers that tells the bass where to go, just like the little man in the refrigerator that turns off the light! Hilarious!

It is a good thing it is Friday, Ken, or you may have had a terrible week. Too funny.

PolkWannabie

I thought you were referring to a 1950's/60's tune ... LOL ...

MR. BASS MAN
Johnny Cymbal

(Bop-bop-bop singing by bass voice)

Mr. Bass Man, you've got that certain somethin'
Mr. Bass Man, you set that music thumpin'
To you it's easy when you go 1-2-3, d-d-b-bop-a-bop
(Bass voice: You mean b-b-BOP-p-p-bop bop bop...)
Yeah!

Mr. Bass Man, you're on all the songs
B-did-did-a-boom-boom, B-dit-dit-a-boom-boom-bom
Hey Mr. Bass Man, you're the hidden King of Rock 'n' Roll, d-d-b-bop-a-bop
(Bass voice: No no, b-b-BOP-p-p-bop bop bop...)

It don't mean a thing when the lead is singin'
Or when he goes "Hi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yah"
Hey Mr. Bass Man, I'm askin' just one thing:
Will you teach me? Yeah, will you sing?
'Cause Mr. Bass Man, I wanna be a bass man too, d-d-b-bop-a-bop
(Bass voice: Try this, b-b-BOP-p-p-bop bop bop...)
Hey Mr. Bass Man, I think I'm really with it
B-did-did-a-boom-boom, a-boom-boom-b-dit-dit-dit-dit
C'mon, Mr. Bass Man, now I'm a bass man too, d-d-b-bop-a-bop
(Bass voice: That's it, b-b-BOP-p-p-bop bop bop...)

shack

therockman - we could be dealing in semantics here, but my issue with your post was two fold:

One - the term "bass management". Deciding to send a full range signal to all of your speakers IS a form of bass management. Deciding to use a speaker level input vs the LFE input IS a form of bass management. It is obviously much more complicated than that, but it is all bass management. Your post sounded like you were saying that bass management is unnecessary if you have decent speakers...Just hook-em up and run.

Two - the notion that "most" involved in serious HT do it one way or another. If that were the case then there would be few discussions like this. Polk's way is different than some speaker manufacture's and the same as other's. Dolby is even somewhat ambiguous. Manufacturers differ, "experts" differ, individuals differ, etc...

It's all good - just opinions...

A good article which supports some of what you are trying to convey as well as pointing out some of the opposite can be found HERE

therockman

Thanks shack for that great link, that is really a good article. But semantics aside, you are guys are now stuck with me here at your forum, I really enjoy it here, and this dialog is just one example of how different people, with different opinions, can get together and have some fun and discuss a subject that we all enjoy.

shack

Cool - welcome aboard.

PolkThug

Originally posted by therockman
Thanks shack for that great link, that is really a good article. But semantics aside, you are guys are now stuck with me here at your forum, I really enjoy it here, and this dialog is just one example of how different people, with different opinions, can get together and have some fun and discuss a subject that we all enjoy.

Great to have you here rock! Now that you've got me thinking about this....

I listen to all my music in two-channel mode, regardless of CD, DVD-A, etc. I just don't like the idea of surround sound music, with instrument sounds behind me. Anyway, since I just use my center channel for movies, I'm gonna go home tonight and set my center speaker to large (rest at small) and see how I like it.

Regards,
PolkThug

therockman

I forgot to mention that the February/March 2004 issue of SOUND & VISION has a great comparison of universal players, (able to play CD, DVDs, SACDs and DVD-As). There is a chart on page 103 that details the various features of about 20 different universal players and also mentions which ones have bass management capabilities on the different formats. You know, a colum labeled SACD and one labeled DVD-A, with check marks to indicate which models offer bass management for each format. It is a very inclusive list of models and features, and might be just what you are looking for.

DLewis

Thanks shack and rockman for those links, very informative.

Dr. Spec

The DVD-2900 has a different set of BM filters for SACD vs. DVD-A.

DVD-A is the more standard 12/24 high/low pass slopes.

SACD has 6/12 high/low pass slopes! This really allows the surrounds to play down pretty deep with an 80 Hz xo.

It also rolls the sub off quite a bit less steeply and sometimes you can actually tell what song is playing if you just leave the sub powered up and disconnect the surrounds. Not quite what most of us had in mind for "non-directional" bass from the subwoofer. I guess in this instance, it pays to have the sub between the mains or at least near them.

Then again, the ICBM only does 12 dB/octave as the steepest on the low pass side........so it would suffer the same symptoms more than likely.

Anyway, SACD still sounds great on the 2900 and seriously if I didn't know better I'd never know it was using 6/12 BM filters just by listening - DSOTM is as awesome as ever and I can't tell where the sub is at least in my rig.

I use my 2900 BM circuit for all music playback, even 2 channel - which it also does with 12/24 slopes.

To answer the original question - unless the AVR has analog BM (very few do, the Denon 5803 being an exception), then you will require onboard BM for your universal player or takes your chances and send a full range signal to each speaker (most of which can't handle well anyway and aren't really full range).

Doc