Protecting cedar outdoor furniture

muncybob
muncybob Posts: 3,065
edited July 2014 in The Clubhouse
I know there are some more expereienced wood finishers here than I so....

I'm in the process of making some cedar furniture for the deck. Never worked with cedar before but I know it will grey like most woods if left untreated. Not sure I want to stain it as it looks nice already. Should it be sealed with something like Penofin offers and maybe a coat or 2 of varnish? What has worked best for you?
Yep, my name really is Bob.
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Post edited by muncybob on

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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,011
    edited July 2014
    F1NUT is the man to ask, send him a PM. The man knows wood inside/outside/upside down.
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  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,656
    edited July 2014
    I have always used the Thompson's deck seal for the "unfinished" pine and cedar furniture I have made in the past. Unfortunately, most outdoor finishes that protect from greying require reapplication.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,754
    edited July 2014
    Unfortunately, most outdoor finishes that protect from greying require reapplication.

    Slight correction, make that all.

    muncybob, it's basically a case of pick your poison. Oil types don't last long, but are easy to refresh. Hard coat types last longer, but require a lot more work to refresh. Whatever you choose, the higher the UV protection, the better.
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  • Msabot1
    Msabot1 Posts: 2,098
    edited July 2014
    Spar varnish maybe? It's what is used to protect wood from the sea....takes a little upkeep though,but will let the grain show through.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,754
    edited July 2014
    I stopped using spar varnish on the boat years ago in favor of Cetol, which has a much higher level of UV protection, but it is also a lot more opaque than spar varnish. Trade offs any way you look at it.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,842
    edited July 2014
    Spar varnish is just varnish with a flexing agent in it. It doesn't have any benefit over regular varnish, even in a salt water applications. They only reason it's called spar varnish is because it was developed to protect masts and spars on ships. The masts flex and spar varnish resist cracking when the mast flexes.

    However, modern polyurethanes have far out classed spar varnishes in weather resistance. Spar varnish is still used on boats because it flexes but there are more modern replacements that outclass varnishes in general and offer better protection and longer life. One of the biggest reasons spar varnish is still made is because older boats are covered in it and you can't just slap a newer finishing material over the old varnish. It won't work. Not without some serious refinishing work.

    You can get marine grade polyurethane and the only real difference between that and regular polyurethane is the marine stuff has a much higher UV resistance/protection rating.

    Salt water doesn't really bother polyurethane too much. It's the UV damage that is the problem. Once it starts breaking down the polyurethane, it no longer protects against the elements.

    So if you want to poly your outdoor furniture, a marine grade polyurethane would be good but like F1nut said, to replenish it takes a bunch of effort usually involving sanders.
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited July 2014
    I have some outdoor furniture I built using white oak. I used an outdoor/marine finish made by Penofin and although it needs a new coat every 3 to 4 years, the finish and the wood has held up very well. I have not had good luck with any polyurethane finish that is subjected to direct sunlight for significant amounts of time. I have had good luck with the General Finishes urethane finishes, although it takes a lot of coats to get a good build.
    DKG999
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  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,842
    edited July 2014
    Ummm...General Finishes' urethane finishes are polyurethanes.
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited July 2014
    They don't act like a polyurethane. Here are the technical description for the one I use:

    Classification:
    Oil Based Varnish
    Product Description:
    Arm-R-Seal is an extremely durable varnish suitable
    for furniture, cabinets, millwork, and case goods.
    The unique oil and urethane resins provides deep
    penetration into the substrate and forms a hard,
    tough, beautiful finish resistant to household chemicals,
    water, and mar. It is formulated to be wiped on
    with a cloth or applied with a foam brush. Arm-RSeal
    provides a rich, warm look, sands well, and is
    easy to apply.
    DKG999
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  • gdb
    gdb Posts: 6,012
    edited July 2014
    Cedar can sometimes have adhesion problems with some finishes, I'd try this stuff, it works on teak which is also resinous and sometimes difficult to get a durable UV resistant finish on. Penetrol could be worth trying also.



    http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=168
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,011
    edited July 2014
    So....the moral of the story is....buy plastic outdoor furniture ?
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  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,842
    edited July 2014
    dkg999 wrote: »
    They don't act like a polyurethane. Here are the technical description for the one I use:

    Classification:
    Oil Based Varnish
    Product Description:
    Arm-R-Seal is an extremely durable varnish suitable
    for furniture, cabinets, millwork, and case goods.
    The unique oil and urethane resins provides deep
    penetration into the substrate and forms a hard,
    tough, beautiful finish resistant to household chemicals,
    water, and mar. It is formulated to be wiped on
    with a cloth or applied with a foam brush. Arm-RSeal
    provides a rich, warm look, sands well, and is
    easy to apply.

    It's probably because it's oil based. You can get oil and water based. Varnish can have a urethane resin in it because varnish is usually a drying oil and a resin with a thinner/solvent so it's easy to spread and helps keep the product liquid in the can/jar. An oil based polyurethane will be mostly the same but without the solvent part.

    Typically, in a polyurethane, the resin is synthetic. A varnish can have a number of resins. Everything from a number of gums to amber to pine rosin to shellac as a resin. Varnishes can have lacquers in them too. Like piano black finish? It's typically a varnish with a lacquer in it that is buffed and polished to a mirror shine.

    As far as polyurethanes go:
    Polyurethane products often are simply called “urethanes”, but should not be confused with ethyl carbamate, which is also called urethane. Polyurethanes neither contain nor are produced from ethyl carbamate.

    Polyurethanes are used in the manufacture of flexible, high-resilience foam seating; rigid foam insulation panels; microcellular foam seals and gaskets; durable elastomeric wheels and tires (such as roller coaster and escalator wheels); automotive suspension bushings; electrical potting compounds; high performance adhesives; surface coatings and surface sealants; synthetic fibers (e.g., Spandex); carpet underlay; hard-plastic parts (e.g., for electronic instruments); hoses and skateboard wheels.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyurethane

    Most any finish product that has the word urethane in it is a type of polyurethane. So when General Finishes calls it a "urethane varnish", it's an oil based polyurethane with a thinner. Varnishes typically have tinting though and it's due to the natural resin used. Shellacs are usually blonde to orange in shade while a pine rosin can be dark brown and so on and so forth. Varnishes will have the same kind of hard finish as a polyurethane but unlike polyurethane, varnishes can crack and blister easily with something as simple as a hot cup of tea or being left in the sun with a potted plant on it. Polyurethanes are typically more durable in that respect.

    And yeah, I know, Wikipedia, blah, blah, blah. Whatever. My dad has been building furniture for years and I've rebuilt 3 houses from the inside out now. I've also refinished boats (<---that sucks). I've learned stuff about finishing things. Mostly because I wanted to know why I was doing what somebody else told me to do. I don't know nearly as much as Jesse does but I do know stuff too. I only referenced Wikipedia because I could cut and paste what I want to say without typing it all out.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,093
    edited July 2014
    tonyb wrote: »
    So....the moral of the story is....buy plastic outdoor furniture ?

    Amen to that Tony. No more wood here, Trex all the way. Easy to maintain & will probably outlast me. The Amish not far from me make superb outdoor furniture in both Trex & wood. Pick your poison. I don't know, maybe it's just me but as one gets up in years the less work to maintain the better. I have better things to do with my time.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,011
    edited July 2014
    I hear ya Phil, same here. Less work, the better. Besides, they make those outdoor rattan seating groups now that hold up well to weather and cushions that don't get moldy.
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  • muncybob
    muncybob Posts: 3,065
    edited July 2014
    I hear you on the plastic...but, everything we already have is wood and it's so much cheaper(at least initially). Some good info given for me to make a choice from. Always amazes me how little I know.
    Yep, my name really is Bob.
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