Poll: Are perfect 1:1 copies possible in the digital domain?

villian
villian Posts: 412
edited July 2014 in Going Digital
Is a digital music file able to be copied perfectly (Resulting in a 1:1 copy) to another location?


Just doing a quick survey. Feel free to state your opinion and why it is that way in the following posts. Also, if you believe that 1:1 digital copies are not possible and are willing to post about it, can you please explain what the difference would be between the source file, and the resulting duplicate file. This is assuming that the resulting file has passed all error checks and is a complete, ready to use, copy of the original. Regardless of transfer or copy method.
Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. :)
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,416
    edited June 2014
    I don't think there will ever be such ling as a perfect copy because of the digital language of 1's and 0's, unless they find a way to change the language, but I also believe it to be a mute point because things will inevitably advance to the point where the ear-brain will not be able to detect it.
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    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • villian
    villian Posts: 412
    edited June 2014
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    I don't think there will ever be such ling as a perfect copy because of the digital language of 1's and 0's, unless they find a way to change the language, but I also believe it to be a mute point because things will inevitably advance to the point where the ear-brain will not be able to detect it.

    Fair enough, I appreciate the response! We can agree to disagree. I should probably clarify my original post to make sure everyone knows that I mean a copy of a sound that is already digital :)
    Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. :)
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  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 25,442
    edited June 2014
    Yes.

    My reasoning is an article from Stereophile many years ago where a Sony head honcho stating that CD's are basically a master copy and everyone who buys a CD has a master the same as Sony. The same article he also stated the music industry wanted to do away with physical media because with advancements coming down the road no one will be able to protect their interest with such media.

    There should be no degradation between copy 1 and copy 1000 now try that with a cassette..
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,416
    edited June 2014
    villian wrote: »
    Fair enough, I appreciate the response! We can agree to disagree. I should probably clarify my original post to make sure everyone knows that I mean a copy of a sound that is already digital :)

    Unless you are listening to Daft Punk, sound originates in the analog realm. This, to me anyway, means that something is lost in the transfer to digital from the very beginning. You can copy it after that all day long, but to me they can in no way duplicate the original, which is my goal.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited June 2014
    Hope you don't mind my posting this link,it is relevant to the topic.Since he makes his living with his ears,it's interesting to get an accomplished recording engineers take on several things regarding digital audio.
    http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/199
    It's long ish but informative.
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited June 2014
    DSkip wrote: »
    When something crawls up your butt, it really gets up there, doesn't it?

    That is the nature of a TROLL.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
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  • zane77
    zane77 Posts: 1,696
    edited June 2014
    FTGV wrote: »
    Hope you don't mind my posting this link,it is relevant to the topic.Since he makes his living with his ears,it's interesting to get an accomplished recording engineers take on several things regarding digital audio.
    http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/199
    It's long ish but informative.
    Listened to that entire episode, it was very interesting.
    Home Theater
    Onkyo PR-SC5508 Sharp LC-70LE847U
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    Two Channel
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  • villian
    villian Posts: 412
    edited June 2014
    BlueFox wrote: »
    That is the nature of a TROLL.

    You still didn't answer any of the questions I asked in response to your claims, but at this point I'm willing to forget that if you simply quit following me around calling me a troll on here. It's quite annoying.
    Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. :)
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,554
    edited June 2014
    The same article he also stated the music industry wanted to do away with physical media because with advancements coming down the road no one will be able to protect their interest with such media.

    Bingo and just look at all the suckers swallowing that pill. Idiots, every last one of them.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • polrbehr
    polrbehr Posts: 2,830
    edited June 2014
    F1nut wrote: »
    Bingo and just look at all the suckers swallowing that pill. Idiots, every last one of them.

    Heh heh.

    FWIW, I voted "Not Sure" - I was really curious about what color the resulting bar graph would be...
    So, are you willing to put forth a little effort or are you happy sitting in your skeptical poo pile?


    http://audiomilitia.proboards.com/
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  • Habanero Monk
    Habanero Monk Posts: 715
    edited June 2014
    Attached is a 1.4MB Polk product manual that I have hashed with MD5.

    If you are on a Windows machine download and install checksum for Windows:

    64bit: http://corz.org/engine?section=windows&download=checksum_x64.zip

    32bit: http://corz.org/engine?section=windows&download=checksum.zip

    Download the attached PDF and hash file. Normally the hash file name format is filename.hash. I renamed to filename.hash.txt to make upload easier.

    After installation of the checksum utility you can right click on the PDF and run checksum. Upload the .hash file back to this thread and we can compare hashes.
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  • Habanero Monk
    Habanero Monk Posts: 715
    edited June 2014
    F1nut wrote: »
    Bingo and just look at all the suckers swallowing that pill. Idiots, every last one of them.

    The industry is going to make sure that hook is swallowed all the way down and out the other end before reeling in tight.
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  • helipilotdoug
    helipilotdoug Posts: 1,229
    edited June 2014
    I've tried ripping CD's to the computer and just can't seem to ever get a file that sounds as good as the original CD. Even bought a brand new drive to read the CD's but it's still not doing the job like I want. I'm toying with the idea of playing the CD's on the OPPO BDP 83SE, using the analog stereo out, and then through a A-D converter, just to see if that sounds any better. Has anyone tried this?
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  • Habanero Monk
    Habanero Monk Posts: 715
    edited June 2014
    helipilotdoug wrote: »
    I've tried ripping CD's to the computer and just can't seem to ever get a file that sounds as good as the original CD. Even bought a brand new drive to read the CD's but it's still not doing the job like I want. I'm toying with the idea of playing the CD's on the OPPO BDP 83SE, using the analog stereo out, and then through a A-D converter, just to see if that sounds any better. Has anyone tried this?

    I would take a pressed CD. Rip it to full 1411Kbps .Wav (PCM). Then I would author it back to redbook on a CD.

    Have someone swap out CD's for you in a 20 run trial on your Oppo and see how you track. Just go Oppo analog out. No more conversion other than a Pre-amp or just Oppo's analog out to the amp.
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,590
    edited June 2014
    Doug, its got to do with your equipment as well. The HRT Media Streamer your using to play from your computer is ok, but not as good as some of the DAC chips in lots of cd players.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • Habanero Monk
    Habanero Monk Posts: 715
    edited June 2014
    FTGV wrote: »
    Hope you don't mind my posting this link,it is relevant to the topic.Since he makes his living with his ears,it's interesting to get an accomplished recording engineers take on several things regarding digital audio.
    http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/199
    It's long ish but informative.

    I enjoy his interviews. Interesting that when they heard sonic differences they were able to go back and figure out it was how the CD's were pressed. Amazing.

    What is sad at 19:00 in talking about throwing half a million pressed CD's away because they sounded like garbage back then and now days no one gives a ****.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,416
    edited June 2014
    EndersShadow wrote: »
    Doug, its got to do with your equipment as well. The HRT Media Streamer your using to play from your computer is ok, but not as good as some of the DAC chips in lots of cd players.

    sheesh... and people thing analog is hard, and expensive.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • Habanero Monk
    Habanero Monk Posts: 715
    edited June 2014
    The other way to ask this: Are 1:1 bit perfect digital copies impossible?
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited June 2014
    [Maj Payne voice]What's your angle boy?[/Maj Payne]
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited June 2014
    Over-thinking is not only exhausting and inefficient, it rarely pans out.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited June 2014
    F1nut wrote: »
    Bingo and just look at all the suckers swallowing that pill. Idiots, every last one of them.

    Have to agree 100 percent here!

    Also on a slight digression, all this CLOUD computing makes me VERY NERVOUS. Just where is that taking us? Sure it is convenient, unless of course you can't get an internet connection; in that case you have NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING on your laptop! How's that? Disable web access and you cripple everyone!

    Can you make a perfect copy of anything? That's a question as Old as PLATO and our Greek philosopher would have answered in the negative.

    In modern day terms if an object does not occupy the same space in the same time, how can it be considered a perfect copy of it? It can't because, at the very least, it's newer and in a different location. lol

    Tis Friday, a day for conundrums, puzzles and aporias!

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • villian
    villian Posts: 412
    edited June 2014
    cnh wrote: »
    Also on a slight digression, all this CLOUD computing makes me VERY NERVOUS. Just where is that taking us? Sure it is convenient, unless of course you can't get an internet connection; in that case you have NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING on your laptop! How's that? Disable web access and you cripple everyone!
    cnh

    Good point. The problem is that the "Web" is not a tangible thing, and is spread throughout the entire world on millions of servers. Yet still, I agree with you and think it's a weak point. No power, no web. Spread a bug to infect those servers, and likewise..no web. Relying too much on something is a failure either way.
    Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. :)
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  • falconcry72
    falconcry72 Posts: 3,580
    edited June 2014
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    Unless you are listening to Daft Punk, sound originates in the analog realm. This, to me anyway, means that something is lost in the transfer to digital from the very beginning. You can copy it after that all day long, but to me they can in no way duplicate the original, which is my goal.

    Not really. Sound originates in air. I would argue that more information is lost in an analog transducer's original conversion from air to electrical signal to physical medium than is lost by a conversion from that analog medium to digital. Either way, that's not the question here.
    2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's

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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,416
    edited June 2014
    falconcry72 wrote: »
    Not really. Sound originates in air. I would argue that more information is lost in an analog transducer's original conversion from air to electrical signal to physical medium than is lost by a conversion from that analog medium to digital. Either way, that's not the question here.


    The whole question then is irrelevant, because unless you have the performers live and you are in the room with them, everything else is a poor copy. If you cannot get a perfect 1-1 copy of the original performance from the start, as you suggest, even a perfect copy of a copy is still a flawed copy.

    Air BTW does not move digitally. It moves organically and naturally based upon the sound being produced. It flows... Digital sound looses that as soon as it becomes 1's and 0's. A GREAT DAC improves things, but I must say that my turntable still sounds better than my Elite D9-MkII.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • falconcry72
    falconcry72 Posts: 3,580
    edited June 2014
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    The whole question then is irrelevant, because unless you have the performers live and you are in the room with them, everything else is a poor copy. If you cannot get a perfect 1-1 copy of the original performance from the start, as you suggest, even a perfect copy of a copy is still a flawed copy.

    Air BTW does not move digitally. It moves organically and naturally based upon the sound being produced. It flows... Digital sound looses that as soon as it becomes 1's and 0's. A GREAT DAC improves things, but I must say that my turntable still sounds better than my Elite D9-MkII.

    "perfect copy is still a flawed copy". Agree with that... with the caveat that if a flawed copy is the best you got, it's critical to not allow it to get more flawed.

    BTW, I was in no way insinuating that digital is superior to analog, not at all. I was just minimizing the significance of the analog > digital conversion relative to the air > analog conversion.
    2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's

    Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses

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  • villian
    villian Posts: 412
    edited June 2014
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    The whole question then is irrelevant, because unless you have the performers live and you are in the room with them, everything else is a poor copy. If you cannot get a perfect 1-1 copy of the original performance from the start, as you suggest, even a perfect copy of a copy is still a flawed copy.

    Air BTW does not move digitally. It moves organically and naturally based upon the sound being produced. It flows... Digital sound looses that as soon as it becomes 1's and 0's. A GREAT DAC improves things, but I must say that my turntable still sounds better than my Elite D9-MkII.

    But..it is possible to get a perfect copy of a "Flawed" copy then..correct?
    Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. :)
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  • falconcry72
    falconcry72 Posts: 3,580
    edited June 2014
    villian wrote: »
    But..it is possible to get a perfect copy of a "Flawed" copy then..correct?

    I hope so! And I believe so.
    2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's

    Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses

    Office: Phone/Tablet > AudioEngine B1 > McIntosh D100 > Bryston 4B-ST > Polk Audio LSiM-703's
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited June 2014
    You guys give the phrase "wrapped around the axle" a whole new meaning. Stop "geeking" on go listen.
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  • falconcry72
    falconcry72 Posts: 3,580
    edited June 2014
    steveinaz wrote: »
    You guys give the phrase "wrapped around the axle" a whole new meaning. Stop "geeking" on go listen.

    Sage advice :)
    2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's

    Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses

    Office: Phone/Tablet > AudioEngine B1 > McIntosh D100 > Bryston 4B-ST > Polk Audio LSiM-703's
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited June 2014
    steveinaz wrote: »
    You guys give the phrase "wrapped around the axle" a whole new meaning. Stop "geeking" on go listen.

    ROTFLOL!!! Thank you Steve for my Friday night laugh! Truer words were ne'er spoken!
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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