New speaker setup. Help with positioning

Jyveturkey

So I just upgraded my Polk setup. I had monitor 70s as mains 60s as wides and 40s as surrounds. I replaced the 70s with a9s and the 60s with a3s.

My question is this. Should I run the a3s as wides and monitor 40s as surrounds or the other way around? Where do I put the better speaker? Surrounds or wides? Surround backs are out of the question. I prefer wides.

Thanks for the feedback. Geoff, where are you when I need help?!

F1nut

You would want the front stage to be seamless, so put the A3's as wides.

Question, do you have a power amp for the A9's?

WLDock

Here's an interesting way to think of wides:

From:http://www.soundandvision.com/content/audyssey-says-go-wide

"Experiments have shown that human localization is better in front than to the sides or behind. This means that for front-weighted content such as movies and most music, good engineering dictates that we employ more channels in the front hemisphere than the back. Imaging is also better horizontally than vertically and so good engineering also dictates that channels must first be added in the same plane as our ears before going to higher elevations."

So: "The first level of surround stage enhancement comes from adding the Wide channels. The second level comes from adding the Height channels. If it is practical to have both Wides and Heights then the surround performance will be further enhanced."

There you go!

Jyveturkey

That's sorta what I figured and it is the way I have it set up currently. I'll be looking for a good deal on a set of a5s to move into the wide spot moving the a3s to surround duty.

No. I do not have an amp. Running off my onkyo 809 for the time being. That's also on the list of wants.

F1nut

If I may, get an amp before any speakers. I think you'll find that the A9's sound stage will open up quite a bit and that the wides are not really needed.

Jyveturkey

Oh I know about the amp and the a9s and I will probably get one. I love wide channels so I'd disagree about not needed. I don't plan on running out and buying a pair of a5s but if a deal were to fall in my lap I'd jump on em. That's really the only reason I have the a9s and a3s. I scored the a9s for 485 for the pair and got the a3s and a csia6 for 480. I'm into the 5 speakers for 955 bucks. I would not have gotten them at retail or sale prices as I was pretty happy with my monitor setup. Those prices I couldn't turn down though. If I see a set of a5s for say, 300 I'll jump on those before an amp.

pyrocyborg

Great prices and I agree that we shouldn't be buying brand new Polks at the retail price. At the very least, we should be looking for 25% off on the LSiM and 50% off on the other lines (and a better price on discontinued products). I think, however, that you shouldn't "jump" on the A5s before a power amp.

What do you think you'll be gaining with the A5s versus the A3, considering you already have a pair of A9 for the front? I mean, the most important speakers, when it comes to sound output and quality, are the frontstage 3 (front left, right and center). As long as you have plenty of subwoofer power, you shouldn't need more than a pair of towers. Another pair of towers as wide or presence speakers would be a waste IMO, as there isn't a lot of information in there. Is it a nice addition? Yeah, both can be cool, but I wouldn't put a pair of floorstanding speakers there... I mean, it's like using a V8 muscle car for grocery and never going past 30 MPH. You could be just fine with a pair of bookshelf speakers, unless you want the floorstanding speaker factor. I mean, you'll probably be setting these as SMALL speakers anyway so that your subwoofer could carry the bass...

As for the power... Not everyone agrees that a bigger power amp is always better for every speaker, especially if you're listening at 75 or 80 dB (with let's say, 85-90 dB peaks): sometimes, you should be looking at a better amp (quality), not a bigger amp (quantity). However, when it comes to RTiA9 (or RTi12), I would say that power is mandatory (and quality power is a plus). I mean, you can get away with a good real 50-75w per channel and still enjoy them, but if you're listening at a volume near 85dB (with peaks higher than 95dB), and if your room is big, you'll need the power even if the RTiA9 are more efficient that most recent Polk speakers. Otherwise, your soundstage could colapse, especially if you have a bunch of speakers connected to your receiver. Also, as they have 3 bass drivers, you'll need that power for bass heavy passages.... I mean, those A9 are your heavy hitter: you need to feed them right because if they start collapsing and sounding compressed, you'll hear it and it won't be enjoyable.

I'm sure you'll get more for an amp that you would from a pair of better wide speakers. Sure, it will cost you at least a bit more as it's hard to find good used power amp for less than $300, but it would be my next step... especially when you're going for a 7 speakers configuration with floorstanding speakers in the lot.

Your call, but I wouldn't strain my receiver with more floorstanding speakers. In fact, I would relieve it of such an heavy task. I also think that if you do not have any acoustic treatment, you should invest a bit in that before adding new speakers. You could get much more from a lightly treated room than from a better wide speaker, but that's probably my biased opinion.

F1nut

I love wide channels so I'd disagree about not needed.

Is that because without them there isn't much if anything coming from the outside edges of your L & R speakers?

I took another direction to address that issue. The sound stage from the A7's in my HT rig was basically all between the speakers. I did a crossover upgrade, which really opened up the sound stage. It's not quite SDA wide, but wide enough that I see no need for wide speakers.

Jyveturkey

No. I'm quite happy with the sound of the front 3 on their own but the addition of wide channels does open up the front sound stage quite a bit.

I don't have any room treatments and honestly don't plan on getting any. My ears aren't the best these days and though I'm sure I would hear a difference I'm not sure it's that important to me.

As for what I'd gain with the a5s over the a3s. A front speaker that doesn't require a stand as well as a complete matching set.

I do already have a fairly nice sub (av124 mfw15) and I'm not in any real hurry to get either an amp or the a5s. Depends on what kind of deal pops up first.

Jyveturkey

I've also heard a number of people say they hear no change sonically in the a9s between an avr and an external amp until pushing at or near reference volume levels (around - 10) keep in mind I very rarely listen above -13 or so.

pyrocyborg

Jyveturkey wrote: »

I've also heard a number of people say they hear no change sonically in the a9s between an avr and an external amp until pushing at or near reference volume levels (around - 10) keep in mind I very rarely listen above -13 or so.

It is possible, but it would have to be a mid to high-end receiver to put the same sound quality (and low THD) than a good integrated amplifier or power amp could do. I've tried a Parasound 150w power amp to power my LSiM705 and honnestly, while it sounded louder at a certain point (for example, it sounded at least 6 dB higher than my poor's man NAD for the same "position" on the volume knob) and that it had the capacity to go higher without compression, the difference between my NAD and the Parasound didn't appear to be that interresting for the price... but you know why? Because my speaker positionning is a complete mess in my room: to get the best out of your speakers and your electronics, your speakers must be properly positionned. If they aren't, any piece of electronic won't change that fact.

Good power amps (i.e. low THD, high current, dynamic headroom, good construction) do make a difference. However, whether that difference is worth the price or not depends on your taste, your hearing, your priorities and ... your room. In a treated room, or at the very least when your speakers are properly positionned, a new piece of electronic could change the sound for better or for worse. Is a power amp always the solution to the problem? I guess not... Some low power amplifier do wonder with sensitive speakers, as long as the amplifier in question is of good quality and that you don't crank your volume up.

As for your reference volume (on your AVR), I do not know what it compares to. I've never had a mid to high-end receiver, but on my low-end receiver, -10 dB was quite loud, as if its reference level was in the 95-100 dB range. A mid to high-end receiver like yours shouldn't have any problem driving a pair of tower speakers near their reference level, especially a pair of fairly sensitive ones. However, with 7 channels working at the same time, I don't know: what could happen is that your A9 won't sound as "big", or have as much bass as they could if they were only working in 2 channel mode.

I'm sure you did it before, but you could try playing with crossover frequency so that your A9 would not try to reproduce any frequency under 30 or 40 hz. I do not know if you can set difference crossover on different pair of speakers, but I would try that. It would relieve your receiver of the some of the harder frequencies.

As for your point about the tower factor of the A5 and the trouble of finding a pair of stands for the RTiA3, I do understand. If it cost you as much to have a pair of A3 and stands than it would to have a pair of A5, sure go for the bigger speakers. Floorstanding speakers are cool, but they take a lot of "visual space". I mean, my LSiM705 do that the same place than a pair of bookshelf speakers and a stand, but they look huge in comparison. Try with your other towers to see if it feels right.

P-S: Please keep in mind that while a speaker has a given impedance, it doesn't mean it won't go lower for some frequencies. For example, a speaker could be rated at 8 ohm but has some dips at 2.5 ohm in the lower frequencies, meaning that it could strain most receivers as they aren't meant to sustain that kind of load. That could explain why some people hear a difference between their AVR and a power amp or not: some AVR are able to support 4 ohm speakers, even if it's not officially on their specs. They wouldn't strain too much when the impedance drops and they could handle the load, pushing more. However, if a receiver can't do that, and that the impedance drops and the volume is too high, compression could be audible or worse, distorsion.

Jyveturkey

My receiver is an onkyo 809 so I guess that falls in the mid range of receivers. I'm currently running the a3s and 40s at 80hz and the csia6 and a9s at 60hz. Audyssey wanted the 6,3s,and 9s at 40hz. As for positioning the a9s are about 10 or 11 ft apart at about 30 degrees from the mlp.