Ran afoul of the law......without even knowing it!

Dennis Gardner

Well I just had my first dealings with CITES (Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species). I sold a guitar that was made in Canada and imported into the USA for retail sale, to someone in Ontario, Canada. Customs stopped the item and flagged it as being undeliverable according to CITES. This is the same ridiculous although well meaning group of laws that raided Gibson in Nashville a couple years ago and confiscated lots of wood from them and threatened them with huge fines.

I understand and support the intention of the laws to protect rare woods from extinction, but if the guitar passed through borders on its way to the dealer, the same border shouldn't be a problem a few years later.

Just strange enough to me that I thought I would share my experience, not looking for a political debate at all, so please keep views light on the matter.

BTW, the buyer was refunded by the auction site and I get to keep the purchase $$$ too, so I guess the auction site is paying for this one. Odd...........I keep waiting for the black ops choppers to buzz my house any time.

BlueFox

How does anyone know what wood is used for the guitar?

Dennis Gardner

You don't really know, and unless they test for DNA, they don't either, they just guess and confiscate.

Wait until some major musician's Les Paul or Vintage Martin is confiscated on the tarmac while on tour as they land. It will happen.

The odd part of my experience is that I don't even have the right to the guitar as a return to seller to sell within the USA. I could have sold the guitar and hundreds just like it to anyone in the USA, just not across borders. It is the transport of the item that is the issue. I guess customs will most likely auction the guitar off after hanging on to it for awhile.

I guess that someone with rosewood speaker veneer or amp side accents would be violating the same law.

F1nut

Ok, I can MAYBE understand confiscating a load of raw exotic lumber going across a border to a private citizen, but in the case of Gibson and in your case.....complete BS!!!

It begs the question, do any of the people making and enforcing these laws have even half a brain?

nooshinjohn

I don't understand it even then Jesse. Just like fish, many of these woods they are confiscating are "farm-raised" these days so that they can control specific traits within the grain and cell structure of the wood, as well as to protect them from environmental damage.

This makes about as much sense seizing 200 year old ivory from elephant tusks or putting people in jail for having a feather, shed naturally from a Bald Eagle.(and yes... the Eagle thing did happen)

F1nut

Dennis, was this US or Canadian customs? Regardless, if it was me I'd be raising hell with the responsible party.

Talking about stupid laws and the people that enforce them. I'm flying out to California, the TSA sees I have a Bic lighter, which they promptly confiscate. Huh? They tell me that it could be used to light something dangerous like a bomb. Yeah ok, but I don't have an effing bomb because you just checked dumbass. So, after I leave security (still shaking my head) I stop in a news stand and grab a pack of matches. HELLO!!!

Dennis Gardner

I wasn't told what country stopped it, I just received an email from the auction site telling me that it was on the list. What I find really funny about the whole thing is the casual style of writing used within the email. I actually looked to see if this was a scam of some sort, but it isn't as the buyer has already been refunded by the auction site and I still have my money.

Here are the first 2 paragraphs from the email...

"We're writing to let you know that your recent shipment to buyer **** couldn't be delivered because the shipment contained items that were found to be restricted for import to CA.

Sparrow "Rat Rod Boss" Solid Body Guitar W/ Hardshell Case Made In Canada

To settle the transaction, we've sent the buyer an email explaining why the item couldn't be delivered, and we'll be issuing the buyer a refund. It may take a few days for the refund to appear in the buyer's account. You won't be responsible for reimbursing eBay for the refund. At this point, there's no further action necessary on your part and, as you've been paid, you should consider the transaction complete."

Odd for sure....since the guitar came from Canada in the first place new in 2008 to my dealership for retail sales.

sucks2beme

Sending electronics can get into trouble in some places. Brazil has
some requirements that has stopped shipments as well.
Wrong king of solder, some memory backup batteries will
be flagged.

Dennis Gardner

If you lived in Detroit and purchased a Cadillac CTX (made at Oshawa Car Plant in Ontario) at your Detroit dealership that had a mahogany trim package, you could potentially have to surrender your car at the border if you attempt to drive it over to Toronto for a nice weekend getaway according to the terms of this law.

That is how crazy this is. Well meaning for sure, but so improper in its current implementation.

nooshinjohn

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

If you lived in Detroit and purchased a Cadillac CTX (made at Oshawa Car Plant in Ontario) at your Detroit dealership that had a mahogany trim package, you could potentially have to surrender your car at the border if you attempt to drive it over to Toronto for a nice weekend getaway according to the terms of this law.

That is how crazy this is. Well meaning for sure, but so improper in its current implementation.

Smells like a government money grab to me. They won't give you back the guitar, or give it to the seller as was the plan, but they will auction it off instead? WOW!

They could, in theory, impound a car for having the wrong wood used as trim? Again, wow... Guess driving across the border in a Bentley would be a very bad idea.

Dennis Gardner

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Smells like a government money grab to me. They won't give you back the guitar, or give it to the seller as was the plan, but they will auction it off instead? WOW!

They could, in theory, impound a car for having the wrong wood used as trim? Again, wow... Guess driving across the border in a Bentley would be a very bad idea.

You've got it right. In fact they are counseling musicians that tour overseas to register their instruments to get travel permits to avoid the confiscation. Crazy law.

halo71

Am I missing something here? What happened to the guitar?

I have shipped several guitars to CA over the last several years. And have never had an issue. The way they can tell what type of wood it is made from is simple. If the body, acoustic or electric has a clear finish they can tell. Also what wood the fret board and neck is made from is easy to tell.

Dennis Gardner

They confiscated it. It is a really a crapshoot for them to be able to tell at customs whether the rosewood fret board or mahogany body is actually from protected forests. They have the right to take it first and require you to prove the origin after the fact.

Here is a simple list of the more recent additions to the CITES forbidden woods.

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/restricted-and-endangered-wood-species/

Dennis Gardner

The kicker in all of this is that in my message from ebay, they claim that I have no downside from this transaction as I got to keep the sale price for the item. While this so far has been true, my account has been flagged as a CITES offender because every item that I listed or relisted this past week has had a huge warning popup about adhering to the export laws concerning restricted and prohibited items.

So basically, eBay begged me to become an international seller through their global shipping program and then kicked my butt for selling internationally.

madmax

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

CITES offender

Do you have to register with the state now that you are a CITES offender? Are you allowed to live within 500 yards of a tree?

Dennis Gardner

madmax wrote: »

Do you have to register with the state now that you are a CITES offender? Are you allowed to live within 500 yards of a tree?

Not yet, but that whole row of arborvitae trees across my back yard are looking at me different now when I take out the trash.....

tonyb

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

Not yet, but that whole row of arborvitae trees across my back yard are looking at me different now when I take out the trash.....

I'd look at you differently too if every time you took out the trash you came over and pissed on me.

...and btw, running afoul of the law....crap, that's an everyday occurrence for us Italians.

txcoastal1

This is really interesting information. So I gather as we are getting ready for full production of our speakers, that since most of the veneer finishes are on the list, that we will have to get permits to sell and ship out of the US

Thanks

DMara

Hi Dennis G,
Please clear your PM box. I'm sending you a PM.

Dennis Gardner

DMara wrote: »

Hi Dennis G,
Please clear your PM box. I'm sending you a PM.

Done

oldmodman

Can't the customs morons just look at the serial number on the guitar and see that it was mad before the limits on wood were enacted?

nooshinjohn

oldmodman wrote: »

Can't the customs morons just look at the serial number on the guitar and see that it was mad before the limits on wood were enacted?

Nope... that would require an IQ above that of a housefly.

tonyb

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Nope... that would require an IQ above that of a housefly.

....and that's far and few between within government agencies.

ken brydson

Reading this thread title made me think we were going down the PFB road...

Dennis Gardner

ken brydson wrote: »

Reading this thread title made me think we were going down the PFB road...

I would think the same thing if I hadn't sold thousands of instruments with no problem with nearly identical items with 100% feedback/top rated seller ratings and 15 years experience on their site.

This single action will change my outlook on international trade since I'm am far too handsome a man to do prison time. I wouldn't last a week.....

Willow

Sometimes the border rules don't make sense. A couple years back my family was going to a condo in New Smyrna Beach. most of us flew but my dad drove down. He brought some food with him to snack on the way down. At the boarder he was told he couldn't bring in his Florida Oranges....WTH? He was confused as he was headed to where the oranges came from. He asked " you're telling me I can't bring in/back oranges that came from your country back in to your country?" Yeppers...

AsSiMiLaTeD

Alot of those food and produce restrictions actually make sense because you'll have something like a virus strain that fruit in a certain part of the world have built up a tolerance against, but taking that fruit (and the hitch-hiking virus) to a different part of the world that hasn't been exposed to it could cause major issues

billbillw

Boy, this really pisses me off! Confiscating an artful musical instrument because of the wood? I'm an environmentalist at heart and for a career, but this is beyond ridiculous! Like others have said, stop raw wood from leaving the source countries, but finished products that were produced 5+ years ago? Ridiculous!

I looked at the link. I'm guessing it was the Rosewood frets that caused it to be flagged. A shame...

Willow

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

Alot of those food and produce restrictions actually make sense because you'll have something like a virus strain that fruit in a certain part of the world have built up a tolerance against, but taking that fruit (and the hitch-hiking virus) to a different part of the world that hasn't been exposed to it could cause major issues

It does of course but USA-Canada-USA doesn't.

nooshinjohn

Proof that this is nothing but a scam...

The ENRD is the division of the DOJ that was responsible for the Gibson Guitar Corporation raid, which as some may recall nominally dealt with the legality of materials imported from Madagascar used in the fingerboards of the company’s guitars, in what appeared to be a politically motivated case. Part of the settlement that Gibson Guitar reached with the DOJ in order to continue as a going concern was to pay out $50,000 to the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation. The authors write:

“instead of making a payment to the U.S. Treasury Department for the American taxpayer, Justice in essence extorted money from Gibson Guitar to help fund the NFWF, a congressionally created private charity that hands out funds “to some of the nation’s largest environmental organizations, as well as some of the smallest,” according to its own website.

So basically, the Justice Department used its authority to engineer a settlement of government claims requiring the defendant to provide benefits to a private group that was not involved in the lawsuit and was not injured by the defendants’ actions.”

F1nut

One can only hope that the principles of the ENRD are tried, convicted and thrown in jail.